I am happy my daughter has given my wife and me the gift of being a grandparent. But if my daughter and son-in-law were so stressed with having children that it made them deeply unhappy or caused problems in their relationship, I wouldn't be happy.
Grandchildren are indeed a payoff, but something we have no agency over.
I have 2 sons. One is a bachelor at 41. The other at 44 is a Dad of a 10 yr old. I am so happy to be a grandparent and now it is hard to imagine not having my grandson. But I was pretty convinced it would never happen and I certainly never asked for one! It is a major difficult decision these days with huge housing costs, etc.
At least you were nice about it; my mother has been chomping at the bit for years, despite telling me as a younger woman not to have children unmarried as it is an unwise decision, she suggested it I think because she saw her brother's both having grandchildren and felt left out.
Another one whose parent is DYING for grandkids and has been talking about those theoretical grandkids for years. I highly recommend the Maria Coffey's most recent book (can never remember the title) about being childfree. Even if that isn't your interest I was bowled over by how she wrote about her relationship with her own Mom, who was very very vocal about Maria not giving her grandkids. Their relationship mirrored in some ways my own with my Mom and it was healing to read it.
Spence, I hope you can keep those comments to your journal or find a nice way to say them. My mother expressed she, "did not want to die not having been a grandparent" and well, remains not-a-grandparent more than two years later. She said that to me in a heated moment and I shut down conversations about kids with her for a good while. It's not up to you what your children decide to do. Wishing you the best (and I'm a former Austinite, if that helps!)
David, I’ve also been struck by the “childless by choice” theme expressed by a number of women writers here on Substack. It is an essential question that demands the utmost respect. It has personal resonance as I wonder about the necessity of marriage and children for a “complete” life when it comes to my younger daughter, who is a pediatric surgeon. No doubt she is still figuring this out herself. I don’t care about her choices; all I care about is her happiness.
I am happy my daughter has given my wife and me the gift of being a grandparent. But if my daughter and son-in-law were so stressed with having children that it made them deeply unhappy or caused problems in their relationship, I wouldn't be happy.
But you encapsulated what I believe is the right attitude to the choices of others: respect.
Good for you for making yourself be open minded about your views on life. It's not an easy position, but one that is so necessary. For all of us. Whenever the topic comes up, I tell people my husband and I are "childfree." The word alone is generally enough, and I don't have to explain it further. We've/I've never regretted the decision. I realized many years ago that women cannot have it all, and I was not interested in turning myself inside out in an effort to do so. I'm very content with my decision, especially now with the state of the world. But that's a post for another day! 🙂
David, The courage to change as it appears in your writing is mirrored by Carly Simon’s powerful song contrasting and arresting, in Grand Central Station, people who normally are rushing in familiar daily patterns. Thank you.
I'm glad you watched that performance, which I think was remarkable. And I didn't think about the contrast of the setting and the song until you just now brought it up.
Having now worked on coming to understand my family of origin, I think the biggest challenge for me as an individual is to allow myself to live in my own experience and to let you (or any "other") live in theirs. The subjective experience is just that, subjective, individual, personal. No two things are the same for two people and can never be. But heck, I would feel a lot more "comfortable" if everyone lives like me, thought like me, felt like me. There is the rub. So the thing I walk away with is there are infinite ways to live life, no ONE way. The other problem that arises is that our collective trauma of being human is there are many of us that can't see how allowing another to have and live their own experiences without trying to convince or change the other is a valuable way to be. So we run around telling others how to be, live so, feel. Talk about conflict! And it's a moment by moment process that works and doesn't work. The ways in which we think our way is best is inherent in human nature, the tribe mentality. It's probably wired into our biology for survival. And we live in a world that is less like "true survival" (food, water, elements) and more like "current survival" (cell phone access, heat/AC, Uber eats). And it's all perspective!
You bring up a great point that it is a basic human urge to want our own decisions to be confirmed by others deciding the same way. It probably was survival wiring, the necessity for a tribe to think alike in order to survive.
Yeah, we can't simplify things as well to mere tribal necessities as the thing itself wasn't valued at all, it's postmodern pressumption that anything old is bad or worse then the future. I don't see a bright future for this neurotic postmodern dogma.
Congratulations on increased self awareness David!!!
It took me probably 25 years into marriage to get a more complete appreciation of my wife. Going on 47 years. Certainly on my domestic responsibilities. I was intense in business and traveled a lot being in the commercial world.
But I see the viewpoint of women. I did see that early, sadly. Mom had to forgo a scholarship from small town WV to U of Chicago. Got me instead. And 4 more kids. Dad was dutiful. Wanted to have been a surgical nurse likenhe was in WW2 but ended up doing shift work at a chemical plant. Mom grew tired of living the unexciting life. So out with Dad.
My wife, met her in 1977 to fix her car, did not want children. I believed that was a choice for her alone. I totally didn't marry my wife to rule or over a family in 1977. I loved the brilliant creative, compassionate force she is.
Today, I see the wonderful rise of women. It's fabulous!
It's Wonder Woman!, Beyonce! Taylor Swift! And in the political sphere as well.
Vast swatches of the young male marriage age cohort is having a moment. Bad moments. So many have fallen behind the necessary evolutionary requirements of today.
My very devout Christian niece is amazing. Late thirties. BA MA Wheaton college. A very successful realtor. In Dallas. She may find a suitable husband But she also sees the reality of not finding a brilliant and confident man.
Professionally I see a growing number of very happy women with women partners. It's wonderful.
I think it is terrific as well that women are able to have many more choices of lifestyle.
It does leave the question of what does the Western world look like with after a long period of time when the fertility rate is below replacement? I have no idea what the effects might be on a societal level or how it would affect attitudes about immigration and so many other things. I think it's impossible to say, bit it's interesting to speculate about.
David, your articles never fail to ignite a spark of excitement in me when they land in my inbox. They delve into topics that make me ponder deeply, and for that, I am truly grateful.
When I joined Substack last fall, I followed Simon Haisell from Instagram, seeking a platform to write and discuss books, my passion. Little did I know, the real treasure was the multitude of brilliant minds, including yours, that I would encounter, expanding my horizons in ways I never anticipated.
It is vital to hear viewpoints that differ from our own. As you mentioned, at first, we might take it personally and become defensive, but then we have to wonder, why is that? Does my experience negate theirs or vice versa? Of course not. And it is perfectly acceptable for us to have different views on a topic and still be able to have a civil discourse about it.
The other wonderful thing is the opportunity for personal growth when we allow ourselves to really hear another's story. It is a chance for us to look in the mirror and evaluate long-held beliefs to discern if our ideas hold up under scrutiny.
This isn't to say that we should allow ourselves to be swayed by any random opinion just because someone writes it down. However, it is an environment conducive to discourse, the exchange of ideas, and the opportunity to grow in our ideas and relationships if we are open to hearing one another.
A study that got a lot of press a decade or so ago found that men were happier in marriages, and women were happier in *good* marriages (but less happy than single women if they considered their marriage a bad one). The good/bad choice was, I think, subjective and left to the respondent's judgment. I no longer remember who did the study. It would be interesting if the GSS allowed for those distinctions.
I think you have to stop and look at the numbers around unmarried women with children to see what this means. Surveys of people who have marriage and children but no questions about means would give the reader the impression that these are the only factors that are relevant to the claim to happiness. Women who are married with children and of sufficient means to have houses and nannies and cleaning people would be more likely to say they were happy as children or housekeeping wouldn't keep them from their druthers on a constant basis. Being a single parent is an endless slog. Being married but having to take the brunt of childrearing and housekeeping and also work to keep the wheels on and the housing and college funds and retirement goals in sight is another matter as well. Women who don't have a partner and making 60 cents on the dollar may not have the choice to have children even if they want to. No econ data, no dice in my book for real conclusions.
Anne, thanks for the comment. It would make sense that assistance with the care of children would have an effect on whether parents, married or single, were happy. Whether it's involved grandparents or other relatives nearby or being able to afford childcare. These factors are likely really important to quality of life.
The referenced University of Chicago study shows that while other factors (e.g., income and religiosity) matter too, the happiness dividend survives controls for other differences.
..."to pause and linger long enough.." Yes, for many reasons, a few of which you describe well. We are all products of our early environment when concepts like identity was a developmental stage we all experienced, when we pondered over the question, "Who am I?" Our parents were big influencers who helped shape us, through values and beliefs and through how they regarded us and others in the family network. Human development over a lifetime doesn't just take place in discrete stages once and done. There are volumes of research on the topic. FYI, here's a quick summary of Eriksen's 8 stages. He called these tasks for the healthy development of self .
1 Trust vs. mistrust Birth to 12–18 months A sense of trust and security
2 Autonomy vs. shame & doubt 18 months to 3 years Feelings of independence lead to belief in yourself and your abilities
3 Initiative vs. guilt 3 to 5 years Self-confidence; the ability to take the initiative and make decisions
4 Industry vs. inferiority 5 to 12 years Feelings of pride and accomplishment
5 Identity vs. confusion 12 to 18 years A strong sense of identity; a clear picture of your future
6 Intimacy vs. isolation 18 to 40 years Safe relationships filled with commitment and love
7 Generativity vs. stagnation 40 to 65 years The desire to give to family and community, and to succeed at work
8 Integrity vs. despair Over 65 years Pride in what you’ve achieved leads to feelings of satisfaction
I don't believe we ever have "a clear picture of our future." I would not have imagined I would ever get a divorce and have to go through that, with 3 children to consider, 2 in their teens and 1 younger. I did not see a new marriage on the horizon but that happened too, 28 years ago. The first marriage was 35 years, not exactly a failure. Family is but one big consideration and as you've pointed out, career is another and then what? Now, as you move toward the end of your 60's, I celebrate your revelations and epiphanies about the possibilities that lay ahead. Onward, my friend. Change is the name of the game!
The notion of marriage as a a construct to enforce social order seems intuitive to me. I know that, back during the same sex marriage debates, some of my homosexual friends were wondering why the movement placed so much emphasis on participating in such a "normal" institution. For some, it was a chance to participate fully in society's order. For others, it was giving up an outsider identity that was important to them.
Along these lines, and this might be an interesting topic for you to explore from the standpoint of wealth -- is work and employment also really a construct to enforce social order? We allow employers to direct the lives of their employees in areas where the government is forbidden. Like, say, the Federal government can absolutely not censure me for attending a public protest, but my boss can fire me over it, if they think my attendance reflected poorly on the company. The federal government cannot drug tests citizens at will. My employer can, as a condition of employment.
Thanks for the comment, Michael. I think the difference between decisions around family/marriage and work/employment is that the latter is necessary to achieve income, while the former is more of a choice.
So I don't see work/employment primarily as a social construct, although you do give up freedoms when you work.
Your comment sparked an idea of how the two different spheres relate. For the future!
I wonder how many people feel the legal and economic benefits of marriage in our culture as subtle social pressures, so that an unmarried person perceives economic well-being as the combination of employment and marriage. If we consider a married, dual-employed couple's greater home-buying power and full medical coverage under two insurance policies, marriage might seem not so much like a choice. It may seem more like employment - an economic necessity. Your idea and Michael's to follow up with another post about the relationship between work/employment and family/marriage seems fruitful.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but just focusing on health insurance, if one spouse has a job that provides coverage for the family, that alone is a huge step to avoid precariousness. You gave me a lot to think about.
Agree. The social order thing is a real component of the institutions and if the ERA were passed tomorrow and women had to be paid on the same scale my guess is that we'd see who really benefits from staying in their marriage. Maybe numbers would go up because it would take the pressure off many marriages or it could go down as women oppressed in their marriages left? Until it happens, who's to say?
Isabel,
Wishing you a rapid exorcism of the norovirus from your house.
Now I get to look forward to your post tomorrow. I'm not surprised about our both using a quote from Laura's essay as we have similar (good) tastes!
I Wrote this to another commenter:
I am happy my daughter has given my wife and me the gift of being a grandparent. But if my daughter and son-in-law were so stressed with having children that it made them deeply unhappy or caused problems in their relationship, I wouldn't be happy.
Grandchildren are indeed a payoff, but something we have no agency over.
I have 2 sons. One is a bachelor at 41. The other at 44 is a Dad of a 10 yr old. I am so happy to be a grandparent and now it is hard to imagine not having my grandson. But I was pretty convinced it would never happen and I certainly never asked for one! It is a major difficult decision these days with huge housing costs, etc.
At least you were nice about it; my mother has been chomping at the bit for years, despite telling me as a younger woman not to have children unmarried as it is an unwise decision, she suggested it I think because she saw her brother's both having grandchildren and felt left out.
Another one whose parent is DYING for grandkids and has been talking about those theoretical grandkids for years. I highly recommend the Maria Coffey's most recent book (can never remember the title) about being childfree. Even if that isn't your interest I was bowled over by how she wrote about her relationship with her own Mom, who was very very vocal about Maria not giving her grandkids. Their relationship mirrored in some ways my own with my Mom and it was healing to read it.
Spence, I hope you can keep those comments to your journal or find a nice way to say them. My mother expressed she, "did not want to die not having been a grandparent" and well, remains not-a-grandparent more than two years later. She said that to me in a heated moment and I shut down conversations about kids with her for a good while. It's not up to you what your children decide to do. Wishing you the best (and I'm a former Austinite, if that helps!)
Good on ya!
That line about passing the salad made me laugh out loud. Is there a cartoon opportunity in the scene that Laura writes so vividly?
Thanks as always for the comment Jason.
Such an interesting piece! And I cannot recommend Lyz’s book enough. The quiet cruelty she and other women experienced filled me with such rage.
Just a joke—So, Trump got a bond from a used car salesman and two days later the wheels fell off.
Who saw that coming?
David, I’ve also been struck by the “childless by choice” theme expressed by a number of women writers here on Substack. It is an essential question that demands the utmost respect. It has personal resonance as I wonder about the necessity of marriage and children for a “complete” life when it comes to my younger daughter, who is a pediatric surgeon. No doubt she is still figuring this out herself. I don’t care about her choices; all I care about is her happiness.
I am happy my daughter has given my wife and me the gift of being a grandparent. But if my daughter and son-in-law were so stressed with having children that it made them deeply unhappy or caused problems in their relationship, I wouldn't be happy.
But you encapsulated what I believe is the right attitude to the choices of others: respect.
Good for you for making yourself be open minded about your views on life. It's not an easy position, but one that is so necessary. For all of us. Whenever the topic comes up, I tell people my husband and I are "childfree." The word alone is generally enough, and I don't have to explain it further. We've/I've never regretted the decision. I realized many years ago that women cannot have it all, and I was not interested in turning myself inside out in an effort to do so. I'm very content with my decision, especially now with the state of the world. But that's a post for another day! 🙂
David, The courage to change as it appears in your writing is mirrored by Carly Simon’s powerful song contrasting and arresting, in Grand Central Station, people who normally are rushing in familiar daily patterns. Thank you.
I'm glad you watched that performance, which I think was remarkable. And I didn't think about the contrast of the setting and the song until you just now brought it up.
Having now worked on coming to understand my family of origin, I think the biggest challenge for me as an individual is to allow myself to live in my own experience and to let you (or any "other") live in theirs. The subjective experience is just that, subjective, individual, personal. No two things are the same for two people and can never be. But heck, I would feel a lot more "comfortable" if everyone lives like me, thought like me, felt like me. There is the rub. So the thing I walk away with is there are infinite ways to live life, no ONE way. The other problem that arises is that our collective trauma of being human is there are many of us that can't see how allowing another to have and live their own experiences without trying to convince or change the other is a valuable way to be. So we run around telling others how to be, live so, feel. Talk about conflict! And it's a moment by moment process that works and doesn't work. The ways in which we think our way is best is inherent in human nature, the tribe mentality. It's probably wired into our biology for survival. And we live in a world that is less like "true survival" (food, water, elements) and more like "current survival" (cell phone access, heat/AC, Uber eats). And it's all perspective!
You bring up a great point that it is a basic human urge to want our own decisions to be confirmed by others deciding the same way. It probably was survival wiring, the necessity for a tribe to think alike in order to survive.
Yeah, we can't simplify things as well to mere tribal necessities as the thing itself wasn't valued at all, it's postmodern pressumption that anything old is bad or worse then the future. I don't see a bright future for this neurotic postmodern dogma.
Congratulations on increased self awareness David!!!
It took me probably 25 years into marriage to get a more complete appreciation of my wife. Going on 47 years. Certainly on my domestic responsibilities. I was intense in business and traveled a lot being in the commercial world.
But I see the viewpoint of women. I did see that early, sadly. Mom had to forgo a scholarship from small town WV to U of Chicago. Got me instead. And 4 more kids. Dad was dutiful. Wanted to have been a surgical nurse likenhe was in WW2 but ended up doing shift work at a chemical plant. Mom grew tired of living the unexciting life. So out with Dad.
My wife, met her in 1977 to fix her car, did not want children. I believed that was a choice for her alone. I totally didn't marry my wife to rule or over a family in 1977. I loved the brilliant creative, compassionate force she is.
Today, I see the wonderful rise of women. It's fabulous!
It's Wonder Woman!, Beyonce! Taylor Swift! And in the political sphere as well.
Vast swatches of the young male marriage age cohort is having a moment. Bad moments. So many have fallen behind the necessary evolutionary requirements of today.
My very devout Christian niece is amazing. Late thirties. BA MA Wheaton college. A very successful realtor. In Dallas. She may find a suitable husband But she also sees the reality of not finding a brilliant and confident man.
Professionally I see a growing number of very happy women with women partners. It's wonderful.
I think it is terrific as well that women are able to have many more choices of lifestyle.
It does leave the question of what does the Western world look like with after a long period of time when the fertility rate is below replacement? I have no idea what the effects might be on a societal level or how it would affect attitudes about immigration and so many other things. I think it's impossible to say, bit it's interesting to speculate about.
The data is pretty strong now, that like all of our American history, Immigrants will rescue the now and future.
They added tremendously to our economy recovery.
David, your articles never fail to ignite a spark of excitement in me when they land in my inbox. They delve into topics that make me ponder deeply, and for that, I am truly grateful.
When I joined Substack last fall, I followed Simon Haisell from Instagram, seeking a platform to write and discuss books, my passion. Little did I know, the real treasure was the multitude of brilliant minds, including yours, that I would encounter, expanding my horizons in ways I never anticipated.
It is vital to hear viewpoints that differ from our own. As you mentioned, at first, we might take it personally and become defensive, but then we have to wonder, why is that? Does my experience negate theirs or vice versa? Of course not. And it is perfectly acceptable for us to have different views on a topic and still be able to have a civil discourse about it.
The other wonderful thing is the opportunity for personal growth when we allow ourselves to really hear another's story. It is a chance for us to look in the mirror and evaluate long-held beliefs to discern if our ideas hold up under scrutiny.
This isn't to say that we should allow ourselves to be swayed by any random opinion just because someone writes it down. However, it is an environment conducive to discourse, the exchange of ideas, and the opportunity to grow in our ideas and relationships if we are open to hearing one another.
Thanks as always.
Thanks for the generous comment Matthew.
And yet, the combination of marriage and parenthood is linked to the biggest happiness dividends for women.
https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey#:~:text=The%20GSS%20shows%20that%20a,22%25%20of%20unmarried%20childless%20women.
Thx for posting these links. I wonder if the unhappiness is mainly in big cities.
A study that got a lot of press a decade or so ago found that men were happier in marriages, and women were happier in *good* marriages (but less happy than single women if they considered their marriage a bad one). The good/bad choice was, I think, subjective and left to the respondent's judgment. I no longer remember who did the study. It would be interesting if the GSS allowed for those distinctions.
I think you have to stop and look at the numbers around unmarried women with children to see what this means. Surveys of people who have marriage and children but no questions about means would give the reader the impression that these are the only factors that are relevant to the claim to happiness. Women who are married with children and of sufficient means to have houses and nannies and cleaning people would be more likely to say they were happy as children or housekeeping wouldn't keep them from their druthers on a constant basis. Being a single parent is an endless slog. Being married but having to take the brunt of childrearing and housekeeping and also work to keep the wheels on and the housing and college funds and retirement goals in sight is another matter as well. Women who don't have a partner and making 60 cents on the dollar may not have the choice to have children even if they want to. No econ data, no dice in my book for real conclusions.
Anne, thanks for the comment. It would make sense that assistance with the care of children would have an effect on whether parents, married or single, were happy. Whether it's involved grandparents or other relatives nearby or being able to afford childcare. These factors are likely really important to quality of life.
The referenced University of Chicago study shows that while other factors (e.g., income and religiosity) matter too, the happiness dividend survives controls for other differences.
Courageous and intelligent. Thank you.
..."to pause and linger long enough.." Yes, for many reasons, a few of which you describe well. We are all products of our early environment when concepts like identity was a developmental stage we all experienced, when we pondered over the question, "Who am I?" Our parents were big influencers who helped shape us, through values and beliefs and through how they regarded us and others in the family network. Human development over a lifetime doesn't just take place in discrete stages once and done. There are volumes of research on the topic. FYI, here's a quick summary of Eriksen's 8 stages. He called these tasks for the healthy development of self .
1 Trust vs. mistrust Birth to 12–18 months A sense of trust and security
2 Autonomy vs. shame & doubt 18 months to 3 years Feelings of independence lead to belief in yourself and your abilities
3 Initiative vs. guilt 3 to 5 years Self-confidence; the ability to take the initiative and make decisions
4 Industry vs. inferiority 5 to 12 years Feelings of pride and accomplishment
5 Identity vs. confusion 12 to 18 years A strong sense of identity; a clear picture of your future
6 Intimacy vs. isolation 18 to 40 years Safe relationships filled with commitment and love
7 Generativity vs. stagnation 40 to 65 years The desire to give to family and community, and to succeed at work
8 Integrity vs. despair Over 65 years Pride in what you’ve achieved leads to feelings of satisfaction
I don't believe we ever have "a clear picture of our future." I would not have imagined I would ever get a divorce and have to go through that, with 3 children to consider, 2 in their teens and 1 younger. I did not see a new marriage on the horizon but that happened too, 28 years ago. The first marriage was 35 years, not exactly a failure. Family is but one big consideration and as you've pointed out, career is another and then what? Now, as you move toward the end of your 60's, I celebrate your revelations and epiphanies about the possibilities that lay ahead. Onward, my friend. Change is the name of the game!
Thanks Gary for your comment. For the record I'm only 62 so while I am moving toward my late 60s, I hope to "take my time!"
Bravo, I can relate to your state of mind ☀️
The notion of marriage as a a construct to enforce social order seems intuitive to me. I know that, back during the same sex marriage debates, some of my homosexual friends were wondering why the movement placed so much emphasis on participating in such a "normal" institution. For some, it was a chance to participate fully in society's order. For others, it was giving up an outsider identity that was important to them.
Along these lines, and this might be an interesting topic for you to explore from the standpoint of wealth -- is work and employment also really a construct to enforce social order? We allow employers to direct the lives of their employees in areas where the government is forbidden. Like, say, the Federal government can absolutely not censure me for attending a public protest, but my boss can fire me over it, if they think my attendance reflected poorly on the company. The federal government cannot drug tests citizens at will. My employer can, as a condition of employment.
Thanks for the comment, Michael. I think the difference between decisions around family/marriage and work/employment is that the latter is necessary to achieve income, while the former is more of a choice.
So I don't see work/employment primarily as a social construct, although you do give up freedoms when you work.
Your comment sparked an idea of how the two different spheres relate. For the future!
I wonder how many people feel the legal and economic benefits of marriage in our culture as subtle social pressures, so that an unmarried person perceives economic well-being as the combination of employment and marriage. If we consider a married, dual-employed couple's greater home-buying power and full medical coverage under two insurance policies, marriage might seem not so much like a choice. It may seem more like employment - an economic necessity. Your idea and Michael's to follow up with another post about the relationship between work/employment and family/marriage seems fruitful.
I hadn't thought of it that way, but just focusing on health insurance, if one spouse has a job that provides coverage for the family, that alone is a huge step to avoid precariousness. You gave me a lot to think about.
Precariousness is an excellent word for why people feel insecure about remaining single or ending a bad marriage.
Hundred percent to all that Tara has said.
Agree. The social order thing is a real component of the institutions and if the ERA were passed tomorrow and women had to be paid on the same scale my guess is that we'd see who really benefits from staying in their marriage. Maybe numbers would go up because it would take the pressure off many marriages or it could go down as women oppressed in their marriages left? Until it happens, who's to say?