David, I’ve also been struck by the “childless by choice” theme expressed by a number of women writers here on Substack. It is an essential question that demands the utmost respect. It has personal resonance as I wonder about the necessity of marriage and children for a “complete” life when it comes to my younger daughter, who is a pediatric surgeon. No doubt she is still figuring this out herself. I don’t care about her choices; all I care about is her happiness.
Good for you for making yourself be open minded about your views on life. It's not an easy position, but one that is so necessary. For all of us. Whenever the topic comes up, I tell people my husband and I are "childfree." The word alone is generally enough, and I don't have to explain it further. We've/I've never regretted the decision. I realized many years ago that women cannot have it all, and I was not interested in turning myself inside out in an effort to do so. I'm very content with my decision, especially now with the state of the world. But that's a post for another day! 🙂
David, The courage to change as it appears in your writing is mirrored by Carly Simon’s powerful song contrasting and arresting, in Grand Central Station, people who normally are rushing in familiar daily patterns. Thank you.
Having now worked on coming to understand my family of origin, I think the biggest challenge for me as an individual is to allow myself to live in my own experience and to let you (or any "other") live in theirs. The subjective experience is just that, subjective, individual, personal. No two things are the same for two people and can never be. But heck, I would feel a lot more "comfortable" if everyone lives like me, thought like me, felt like me. There is the rub. So the thing I walk away with is there are infinite ways to live life, no ONE way. The other problem that arises is that our collective trauma of being human is there are many of us that can't see how allowing another to have and live their own experiences without trying to convince or change the other is a valuable way to be. So we run around telling others how to be, live so, feel. Talk about conflict! And it's a moment by moment process that works and doesn't work. The ways in which we think our way is best is inherent in human nature, the tribe mentality. It's probably wired into our biology for survival. And we live in a world that is less like "true survival" (food, water, elements) and more like "current survival" (cell phone access, heat/AC, Uber eats). And it's all perspective!
Congratulations on increased self awareness David!!!
It took me probably 25 years into marriage to get a more complete appreciation of my wife. Going on 47 years. Certainly on my domestic responsibilities. I was intense in business and traveled a lot being in the commercial world.
But I see the viewpoint of women. I did see that early, sadly. Mom had to forgo a scholarship from small town WV to U of Chicago. Got me instead. And 4 more kids. Dad was dutiful. Wanted to have been a surgical nurse likenhe was in WW2 but ended up doing shift work at a chemical plant. Mom grew tired of living the unexciting life. So out with Dad.
My wife, met her in 1977 to fix her car, did not want children. I believed that was a choice for her alone. I totally didn't marry my wife to rule or over a family in 1977. I loved the brilliant creative, compassionate force she is.
Today, I see the wonderful rise of women. It's fabulous!
It's Wonder Woman!, Beyonce! Taylor Swift! And in the political sphere as well.
Vast swatches of the young male marriage age cohort is having a moment. Bad moments. So many have fallen behind the necessary evolutionary requirements of today.
My very devout Christian niece is amazing. Late thirties. BA MA Wheaton college. A very successful realtor. In Dallas. She may find a suitable husband But she also sees the reality of not finding a brilliant and confident man.
Professionally I see a growing number of very happy women with women partners. It's wonderful.
David, your articles never fail to ignite a spark of excitement in me when they land in my inbox. They delve into topics that make me ponder deeply, and for that, I am truly grateful.
When I joined Substack last fall, I followed Simon Haisell from Instagram, seeking a platform to write and discuss books, my passion. Little did I know, the real treasure was the multitude of brilliant minds, including yours, that I would encounter, expanding my horizons in ways I never anticipated.
It is vital to hear viewpoints that differ from our own. As you mentioned, at first, we might take it personally and become defensive, but then we have to wonder, why is that? Does my experience negate theirs or vice versa? Of course not. And it is perfectly acceptable for us to have different views on a topic and still be able to have a civil discourse about it.
The other wonderful thing is the opportunity for personal growth when we allow ourselves to really hear another's story. It is a chance for us to look in the mirror and evaluate long-held beliefs to discern if our ideas hold up under scrutiny.
This isn't to say that we should allow ourselves to be swayed by any random opinion just because someone writes it down. However, it is an environment conducive to discourse, the exchange of ideas, and the opportunity to grow in our ideas and relationships if we are open to hearing one another.
..."to pause and linger long enough.." Yes, for many reasons, a few of which you describe well. We are all products of our early environment when concepts like identity was a developmental stage we all experienced, when we pondered over the question, "Who am I?" Our parents were big influencers who helped shape us, through values and beliefs and through how they regarded us and others in the family network. Human development over a lifetime doesn't just take place in discrete stages once and done. There are volumes of research on the topic. FYI, here's a quick summary of Eriksen's 8 stages. He called these tasks for the healthy development of self .
1 Trust vs. mistrust Birth to 12–18 months A sense of trust and security
2 Autonomy vs. shame & doubt 18 months to 3 years Feelings of independence lead to belief in yourself and your abilities
3 Initiative vs. guilt 3 to 5 years Self-confidence; the ability to take the initiative and make decisions
4 Industry vs. inferiority 5 to 12 years Feelings of pride and accomplishment
5 Identity vs. confusion 12 to 18 years A strong sense of identity; a clear picture of your future
6 Intimacy vs. isolation 18 to 40 years Safe relationships filled with commitment and love
7 Generativity vs. stagnation 40 to 65 years The desire to give to family and community, and to succeed at work
8 Integrity vs. despair Over 65 years Pride in what you’ve achieved leads to feelings of satisfaction
I don't believe we ever have "a clear picture of our future." I would not have imagined I would ever get a divorce and have to go through that, with 3 children to consider, 2 in their teens and 1 younger. I did not see a new marriage on the horizon but that happened too, 28 years ago. The first marriage was 35 years, not exactly a failure. Family is but one big consideration and as you've pointed out, career is another and then what? Now, as you move toward the end of your 60's, I celebrate your revelations and epiphanies about the possibilities that lay ahead. Onward, my friend. Change is the name of the game!
The notion of marriage as a a construct to enforce social order seems intuitive to me. I know that, back during the same sex marriage debates, some of my homosexual friends were wondering why the movement placed so much emphasis on participating in such a "normal" institution. For some, it was a chance to participate fully in society's order. For others, it was giving up an outsider identity that was important to them.
Along these lines, and this might be an interesting topic for you to explore from the standpoint of wealth -- is work and employment also really a construct to enforce social order? We allow employers to direct the lives of their employees in areas where the government is forbidden. Like, say, the Federal government can absolutely not censure me for attending a public protest, but my boss can fire me over it, if they think my attendance reflected poorly on the company. The federal government cannot drug tests citizens at will. My employer can, as a condition of employment.
Even though it is admirable to adjust/update one's priors, I feel the need to push back a little.
Marriage is about finding a life companion. Someone with whom over the years one shares a past, present, and future. Someone in whose company one can grow into the person one feels called to become. Marriage is about announcing to oneself, to each other, and to the world -- this person is my life partner; s/he chose me, I chose him/her.
I admit the above is idealistic, but I feel it is a goal worth aspiring to. For, without a companion to trust and rely on through good times and bad, life can feel like a long boring slog.
Maybe what is needed is not chucking the institution of marriage, but tweaking it. Divorce was a very good corrective. Others I have pondered over time are:
2. a similar built-in pre-announced out after twenty years (or after the kids leave the nest). "Forever" was not so long when life expectancies were lower. With longer life expectatncies, people should have the option of choosing a different lifestyle/partner and without the acrimony and heartbreak that typically accompanies divorce.
Yes, good marriages are rare. But it would be a mistake to toss the concept just because it currently does not work very well. If we wanted to reverse the bad marriages trend, we (as a society) could, for example, explicitly teach teenagers about making good choices/decisions: empathy, present whims vs future happiness, etc. (This would be good grounding for financial wisdom and other life decisions as well.) Maybe the root cause of bad marriages is that there isn't sufficient modeling of good ones.
I would make similar arguments about having children.
If marriage and children were really as problematic as the writers you quoted assert, gay people would never have agitated as they did for the right to marry and have children. They knew what they were missing and they fought hard (and successfully) to get it.
Having gone the route of having children, I tell the rare person who asks my opinion about it, that having children is not a moral obligation but is a calling and a discipline. It’s like deciding to be a marathon runner. It has its rewards but it’s also long, exhausting, and can wreck you. There’s nothing wrong with deciding it’s not for you.
But it will piss me off if my own kids go the childless route. It would suck to go through all that child raising marathon running and not get any grandkids out of it.
Such an interesting piece! And I cannot recommend Lyz’s book enough. The quiet cruelty she and other women experienced filled me with such rage.
Just a joke—So, Trump got a bond from a used car salesman and two days later the wheels fell off.
Who saw that coming?
David, I’ve also been struck by the “childless by choice” theme expressed by a number of women writers here on Substack. It is an essential question that demands the utmost respect. It has personal resonance as I wonder about the necessity of marriage and children for a “complete” life when it comes to my younger daughter, who is a pediatric surgeon. No doubt she is still figuring this out herself. I don’t care about her choices; all I care about is her happiness.
Good for you for making yourself be open minded about your views on life. It's not an easy position, but one that is so necessary. For all of us. Whenever the topic comes up, I tell people my husband and I are "childfree." The word alone is generally enough, and I don't have to explain it further. We've/I've never regretted the decision. I realized many years ago that women cannot have it all, and I was not interested in turning myself inside out in an effort to do so. I'm very content with my decision, especially now with the state of the world. But that's a post for another day! 🙂
David, The courage to change as it appears in your writing is mirrored by Carly Simon’s powerful song contrasting and arresting, in Grand Central Station, people who normally are rushing in familiar daily patterns. Thank you.
Having now worked on coming to understand my family of origin, I think the biggest challenge for me as an individual is to allow myself to live in my own experience and to let you (or any "other") live in theirs. The subjective experience is just that, subjective, individual, personal. No two things are the same for two people and can never be. But heck, I would feel a lot more "comfortable" if everyone lives like me, thought like me, felt like me. There is the rub. So the thing I walk away with is there are infinite ways to live life, no ONE way. The other problem that arises is that our collective trauma of being human is there are many of us that can't see how allowing another to have and live their own experiences without trying to convince or change the other is a valuable way to be. So we run around telling others how to be, live so, feel. Talk about conflict! And it's a moment by moment process that works and doesn't work. The ways in which we think our way is best is inherent in human nature, the tribe mentality. It's probably wired into our biology for survival. And we live in a world that is less like "true survival" (food, water, elements) and more like "current survival" (cell phone access, heat/AC, Uber eats). And it's all perspective!
Congratulations on increased self awareness David!!!
It took me probably 25 years into marriage to get a more complete appreciation of my wife. Going on 47 years. Certainly on my domestic responsibilities. I was intense in business and traveled a lot being in the commercial world.
But I see the viewpoint of women. I did see that early, sadly. Mom had to forgo a scholarship from small town WV to U of Chicago. Got me instead. And 4 more kids. Dad was dutiful. Wanted to have been a surgical nurse likenhe was in WW2 but ended up doing shift work at a chemical plant. Mom grew tired of living the unexciting life. So out with Dad.
My wife, met her in 1977 to fix her car, did not want children. I believed that was a choice for her alone. I totally didn't marry my wife to rule or over a family in 1977. I loved the brilliant creative, compassionate force she is.
Today, I see the wonderful rise of women. It's fabulous!
It's Wonder Woman!, Beyonce! Taylor Swift! And in the political sphere as well.
Vast swatches of the young male marriage age cohort is having a moment. Bad moments. So many have fallen behind the necessary evolutionary requirements of today.
My very devout Christian niece is amazing. Late thirties. BA MA Wheaton college. A very successful realtor. In Dallas. She may find a suitable husband But she also sees the reality of not finding a brilliant and confident man.
Professionally I see a growing number of very happy women with women partners. It's wonderful.
David, your articles never fail to ignite a spark of excitement in me when they land in my inbox. They delve into topics that make me ponder deeply, and for that, I am truly grateful.
When I joined Substack last fall, I followed Simon Haisell from Instagram, seeking a platform to write and discuss books, my passion. Little did I know, the real treasure was the multitude of brilliant minds, including yours, that I would encounter, expanding my horizons in ways I never anticipated.
It is vital to hear viewpoints that differ from our own. As you mentioned, at first, we might take it personally and become defensive, but then we have to wonder, why is that? Does my experience negate theirs or vice versa? Of course not. And it is perfectly acceptable for us to have different views on a topic and still be able to have a civil discourse about it.
The other wonderful thing is the opportunity for personal growth when we allow ourselves to really hear another's story. It is a chance for us to look in the mirror and evaluate long-held beliefs to discern if our ideas hold up under scrutiny.
This isn't to say that we should allow ourselves to be swayed by any random opinion just because someone writes it down. However, it is an environment conducive to discourse, the exchange of ideas, and the opportunity to grow in our ideas and relationships if we are open to hearing one another.
Thanks as always.
And yet, the combination of marriage and parenthood is linked to the biggest happiness dividends for women.
https://ifstudies.org/blog/who-is-happiest-married-mothers-and-fathers-per-the-latest-general-social-survey#:~:text=The%20GSS%20shows%20that%20a,22%25%20of%20unmarried%20childless%20women.
Courageous and intelligent. Thank you.
..."to pause and linger long enough.." Yes, for many reasons, a few of which you describe well. We are all products of our early environment when concepts like identity was a developmental stage we all experienced, when we pondered over the question, "Who am I?" Our parents were big influencers who helped shape us, through values and beliefs and through how they regarded us and others in the family network. Human development over a lifetime doesn't just take place in discrete stages once and done. There are volumes of research on the topic. FYI, here's a quick summary of Eriksen's 8 stages. He called these tasks for the healthy development of self .
1 Trust vs. mistrust Birth to 12–18 months A sense of trust and security
2 Autonomy vs. shame & doubt 18 months to 3 years Feelings of independence lead to belief in yourself and your abilities
3 Initiative vs. guilt 3 to 5 years Self-confidence; the ability to take the initiative and make decisions
4 Industry vs. inferiority 5 to 12 years Feelings of pride and accomplishment
5 Identity vs. confusion 12 to 18 years A strong sense of identity; a clear picture of your future
6 Intimacy vs. isolation 18 to 40 years Safe relationships filled with commitment and love
7 Generativity vs. stagnation 40 to 65 years The desire to give to family and community, and to succeed at work
8 Integrity vs. despair Over 65 years Pride in what you’ve achieved leads to feelings of satisfaction
I don't believe we ever have "a clear picture of our future." I would not have imagined I would ever get a divorce and have to go through that, with 3 children to consider, 2 in their teens and 1 younger. I did not see a new marriage on the horizon but that happened too, 28 years ago. The first marriage was 35 years, not exactly a failure. Family is but one big consideration and as you've pointed out, career is another and then what? Now, as you move toward the end of your 60's, I celebrate your revelations and epiphanies about the possibilities that lay ahead. Onward, my friend. Change is the name of the game!
Bravo, I can relate to your state of mind ☀️
The notion of marriage as a a construct to enforce social order seems intuitive to me. I know that, back during the same sex marriage debates, some of my homosexual friends were wondering why the movement placed so much emphasis on participating in such a "normal" institution. For some, it was a chance to participate fully in society's order. For others, it was giving up an outsider identity that was important to them.
Along these lines, and this might be an interesting topic for you to explore from the standpoint of wealth -- is work and employment also really a construct to enforce social order? We allow employers to direct the lives of their employees in areas where the government is forbidden. Like, say, the Federal government can absolutely not censure me for attending a public protest, but my boss can fire me over it, if they think my attendance reflected poorly on the company. The federal government cannot drug tests citizens at will. My employer can, as a condition of employment.
Even though it is admirable to adjust/update one's priors, I feel the need to push back a little.
Marriage is about finding a life companion. Someone with whom over the years one shares a past, present, and future. Someone in whose company one can grow into the person one feels called to become. Marriage is about announcing to oneself, to each other, and to the world -- this person is my life partner; s/he chose me, I chose him/her.
I admit the above is idealistic, but I feel it is a goal worth aspiring to. For, without a companion to trust and rely on through good times and bad, life can feel like a long boring slog.
Maybe what is needed is not chucking the institution of marriage, but tweaking it. Divorce was a very good corrective. Others I have pondered over time are:
1. a trial period of 2-3 years before a couple actually makes it official (Mexico: https://www.csmonitor.com/World/Americas/2011/1101/Mexico-s-temporary-marriages-till-death-or-two-years-do-us-part)
2. a similar built-in pre-announced out after twenty years (or after the kids leave the nest). "Forever" was not so long when life expectancies were lower. With longer life expectatncies, people should have the option of choosing a different lifestyle/partner and without the acrimony and heartbreak that typically accompanies divorce.
Yes, good marriages are rare. But it would be a mistake to toss the concept just because it currently does not work very well. If we wanted to reverse the bad marriages trend, we (as a society) could, for example, explicitly teach teenagers about making good choices/decisions: empathy, present whims vs future happiness, etc. (This would be good grounding for financial wisdom and other life decisions as well.) Maybe the root cause of bad marriages is that there isn't sufficient modeling of good ones.
I would make similar arguments about having children.
If marriage and children were really as problematic as the writers you quoted assert, gay people would never have agitated as they did for the right to marry and have children. They knew what they were missing and they fought hard (and successfully) to get it.
Having gone the route of having children, I tell the rare person who asks my opinion about it, that having children is not a moral obligation but is a calling and a discipline. It’s like deciding to be a marathon runner. It has its rewards but it’s also long, exhausting, and can wreck you. There’s nothing wrong with deciding it’s not for you.
But it will piss me off if my own kids go the childless route. It would suck to go through all that child raising marathon running and not get any grandkids out of it.