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🥰🥰🥰

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People love to hate hate the rich. And “rich” is subjective. To some it’s anyone who is a homeowner. To others, it’s someone with a private plane or a yacht - or yes, a house in the Hamptons. There are many memes going around about how one hedge fund manager’s salary is more than thousands of kindergarten teachers who pay for school supplies out of their own pockets. To me that’s over-simplifying and extreme. For those who struggled to build a successful business and then leave it to future generations, is that a sin? If those future generations like you mention are divided among generous or greedy - the same happens with different income levels. I am really tired of hearing “the rich are greedy” when in most cases, not only do they pay a vast amount in taxes going to support entitlement programs, many also donate quietly to charities. Many truly are humble.

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Or who worked long hours, sometimes far from home. Because that was my dad during my teenage years. He was either working in Europe, the US, Asia or Bermuda while my mom and I were in Toronto. But that was also when we went from solidly middle class to, I suppose, upper middle class. It would depend on who is trying to define me or my family. I went to a private school and lived in a house with a pool in the backyard. To some, that was “rich.” Others would say upper middle class.

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^^^. I rarely saw my dad back then and since it was the 90s, I was only able to speak with him on the phone. He tried to be home on weekends, which was the case most of the time. I suppose I was lucky because he was actually home most weekends. I knew kids whose dads stayed behind in Hong Kong while they and their mothers were in Canada. A few moms went back and sent their kids to boarding school, however. Now, as an adult, I got a chance to learn more about my dad and his story. Let’s just say that it’s like JD Vance but not to that extreme (JD’s childhood and youth made my dad’s lower middle class upbringing look wealthy/privileged. And my dad would never utter nonsense like THAT GUY).

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author

I don't thin it's a sin to build a business. usually, it's a virtue.

I just think more should be expected from the wealthy in terms of behavior.

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You and Anne Kadet. Now, that will be something. I hope she took lots of photos.

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author

There are photos!

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David, you are brave to be interviewed! I suspect her interview goes beyond the topic of “rich in NYC” and readers will love you!

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Yes! Anne always has fab interviews.

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

So cool! What a great pairing!

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ah, it was you...now I'm an Emma Cline's fan))

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

Great essay David! One aspect of the topic of economic inequality in our society that has fascinated me throughout my life is our "Middle Class". Many of the rich consider themselves part of the Middle Class. Not too long ago, some friends of ours told of a couple they were friends with (unknown to us) who had just bought their 16 year old a lobster boat for his birthday. My jaw hit the floor and I recall wondering out loud how rich they must be. One of our friends was visibley offended and stated "they're not rich Ian, they're Middle class". This attitude by some strikes me as unhelpful.

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author

I think that people are uncomfortable with labels of wealthy, rich, or upper class. Saying middle class appears to be safe, except as you point pout it comes across as insincere, even treacly, when it's obviously untrue.

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hmmmm she might be trying to drum up some laundry business ?

🤣

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

Look forward to reading her interview & following this conversation. Thank you.

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

Hi David,

Interesting point about society’s envy turning the rich into parodies of greed. The coin flip is the many movies and books depicting wealthy life styles as the norm and extolling people like Jobs and Musk - and CEOs in general - as paragons of god-like intelligence and rugged individualism.

I also think it’s worth questioning whether the rich truly are the same when it comes to being good or bad, kind or mean. Research shows wealth hurts peoples’ ability to feel compassion by insulating them from the “slings and arrows of outrageous fortune”.

There is also a power differential at play. The stakes of bad behavior when you are poor are survival, not people complaining behind your back. Being mean - or even outspoken - can cost you your job and the community you rely on as your safety net.

Do good or bad, kind or mean then even have the same meaning depending on your income scale? Is Jeff Bezos donating 1k to charity just as “kind” as me donating 1k to charity?

Love the essay - clearly sparked some thinking on my end!

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author

I've read some research to the effect you mention about a lack of empathy. There was one study about a rigged Monopoly game where the "richer" players started to behave in a dominating way. I think a lot of the halo effect has thinned out about Musk and Jobs. They both seem like miserable geniuses. with messed up family lives.

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"if corrective action is not taken, inequality will become so stretched that something will break and reform will become revolt. Then the bread and circuses of telling tales of miserable rich people will seem irrelevant. Maybe they already are." A fascinating summation. And what "corrective actions" do you believe will change the status quo? Always curious, inquiring mind...

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author

I think corrective action might include higher taxes to pay for things like universal pre-3 and pre-k.

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Sep 7·edited Sep 7Liked by david roberts

I don't think we ever need to worry about the government redistributing income so effectively that the rich are no longer among us to be resented. That's what tax havens were made for—Monaco, Caymans, Bahamas, etc. At least some of the smart money always gets out ahead of the mob bearing pitchforks.

I don't think it's the bad behavior of the rich that is the primary impetus for the envy of the plebs. It is simply the fact that most of us stand at the bottom of a steep mountain, and we know that we will be climbing it for the rest of our lives. We know that we look forward to lives of great effort. When retirement comes and we can cease from the effort of employment and family responsibility, we will soon run into the challenges of old age. In contrast, we can see others already atop the mountain and will never have to make such efforts.

There is a profound inequality in this. Experiments and have shown that monkeys and babies understand unfairness. When another monkey gets a bigger treat for the same response, an onlooking monkey will freak out stridently with the unfairness of it all. Well, the rich have clearly gotten a bigger treat, and we don't even know if they have done enough to deserve it.

Bad behavior by the rich is simply the icing on top of the cake of basic unfairness. It simply confirms our suspicion that the rich have been rewarded in a way they do not deserve.

Who is the literary character I think of when you when we speak of the rich. The literary character I think of is David Roberts. I know him to be a person who is seriously trying to live a productive life which brings good to his family and community. However, he is constantly worried that others think poorly of him. He lives a life of enslavement to the gaze of the other, and he should get over it.

I had a similar challenge in my own life. I worked for 30 years as a teacher, and I knew I was a good teacher because I had a lot of valuable information to share, and people frequently told me I was good at my job. A few even told me that I was the best teacher they ever had. One young man told me that he was the best prepared in his graduate school due to the foundation I had given him. However, I knew I could not succeed as a teacher for everyone.

Perfectionists like David Roberts and Kathleen Weber need to learn that they cannot gain approval of every person at every moment. That doesn't mean we have to make anyone responsible for this failure— sometimes the connection just doesn't work.

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author

Kathleen, I'm there in terms of realizing I can't please everyone! Perfectionism is perhaps the ultimate two sided virtue.

My self-image is that I am not enslaved to the gaze of others but since self-images are notoriously fallible....

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

THIS:

"I don't think it's the bad behavior of the rich that is the primary impetus for the envy of the plebs. It is simply the fact that most of us stand at the bottom of a steep mountain, and we know that we will be climbing it for the rest of our lives. We know that we look forward to lives of great effort. When retirement comes and we can cease from the effort of employment and family responsibility, we will soon run into the challenges of old age. In contrast, we can see others already atop the mountain and will never have to make such efforts.

There is a profound inequality in this. Experiments and have shown that monkeys and babies understand unfairness. When another monkey gets a bigger treat for the same response, an onlooking monkey will freak out stridently with the unfairness of it all. Well, the rich have clearly gotten a bigger treat, and we don't even know if they have done enough to deserve it.

Bad behavior by the rich is simply the icing on top of the cake of basic unfairness. It simply confirms our suspicion that the rich have been rewarded in a way they do not deserve."

I worked my ass off as a high school teacher, and I loved my job and was loved by my students, by and large. So yeah, it's satisfying work. But when I finally left my job in 2014 after ten years, I was making just $36K. My husband, who had been at the school about ten years longer than I, was making a few thousand more. We lived in a very expensive state, so a lot of our income went to things like milk and bread. His parents bought us a new stove and a new washing machine when ours broke. We had benefits and summers off, and modest retirement savings, but mostly, we broke even and were knocked off-kilter by unexpected expenses.

My parents missed knowing their grandchildren when they were growing up because we didn't have the money to fly to visit them or fly them out to visit us. People resent the rich because we work really f**ing hard at our jobs and reach old age with Social Security that isn't enough to live on--and that politicians want to take away, when we paid into it our whole lives to the detriment of being able to afford things like vacations.

Does a businessman who knew how to exploit both a niche in the market and his workers by paying them next to nothing and working them to exhaustion (talking about Bezos here, in case that isn't obvious) deserve to have no money worries, while a teacher who spent countless hours shepherding students through the hardest years of their lives (or a nurse, or...fill in the blank with any other underpaid, undervalued worker we all rely on for the functioning of society) has to fear that a family member will die because they can't afford insulin?

THIS is why people hate the rich.

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author

Gillian, this is what I've been wrestling with. How to reconcile wealth with morality.

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David- I appreciate your candor and lack of complacency about your situation. That is an admirable stance in life wherever we go and whatever we experience.

I’ve been struck by the randomness of outside forces in my own life and the locus of control in my own character. How much do circumstances control character development? How much can we even shape ourselves within certain constraints? I’ve experienced a working class economically precarious upbringing. I married into a middle class life with my first husband. I divorced into scrappy single mom school teacher living. At age 50 a middle school crush searched me out and declared his love as did I.

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Sep 11Liked by david roberts

I didn’t finish- hit the wrong button. Anyway I now find myself in the 1% economically, and it is absolutely wonderful and also morally provoking. The provocation is that I have more freedom to choose my actions than ever, and will those actions be?

I thought I would fall into a life of creativity but the freedom has put me into a life of reckoning of what came before. I stopped surviving and finally had to face all the things I’ve gone through. To be honest that is not what I thought wealth would do for me. However, there are now clouds clearing, and the idea of creating rather than repairing is becoming apparent. Where I go now is wide open. I am so lucky yet feel the responsibility to not waste this.

I appreciate hearing you talk about these things.

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author

Thanks Michelle for your comment. Sounds like you're on a journey of reckoning with changed circumstances and I relate to the twin feeling of good fortune and responsibility.

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Yes, Gillian, yours was the kind of story I had in mind as I was writing!

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

You put yourself out there and shows us you have a conscious. All of your posts shows you are charitable and loving. So I will be envious of those two qualities.

I try not to hate anyone but it is so damn hard with some people. So I accept that I will wrestle with that devil till I am ashes.

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Sep 7·edited Sep 7Liked by david roberts

I loved all three books by Emma Cline-I did start with "The Guest", it was mentioned here on Substack. Something in it made me start to re-read it immediately as I finished it-and believe it or not, right now I happen to re-read it again. Something in common with Alex-even though no, we're different,I'd never this and I never that, so what it is, this piercing "in common", and how the hell the writer knows?...

I know this doesn't answer your question,-but probably would be someone fictional? And for a short time? some Ali-Baba situation

and yes, the more one's got, the more responsibilities they have. It can be wealth, it can be other things. I believe different cultures see that and wisely tell so, have it as a built-in moral code, and guide for action.

As for this country it has so much to do yet to reform stuff I'm hesitant to even start. It's so cut-throat in here it's hard to explain to people abroad. They don't really get it, then why would they-it takes years living somewhere to start really comprehending it.

Thank you for the post, as always-and now I think you've made me check out this 'Succession" show

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author

Succession is so well written and acted. I'm envious that you get to watch it for the first time.

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Can I join your book club? I haven't read Emma Cline (yet) but I'd love to discuss the work of Sigrid Nunez, Patricia Lockwood, Tara Isabella Burton, and others.

Succession can be a hard watch at times, but it's worth it. The production levels, the acting, the dialogue is soooo good.

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

AT the moment, “The Perfect Couple” comes to mind, but only because it just dropped a couple of days ago. Would be fun for you to review it!!

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author

I'll try it out. Thanks Susan.

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

By the way, I don’t hate you. But I do hate people who have a house on the ocean. Writer’s fantasy. There are several scenes in “The Perfect Couple” in which she is sitting at a desk overlooking the ocean. I hated her. And then, too, she’s Nicole Kidman.

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author

Some day we will find out whether Nicole Kidman is part of the same species as we humans.

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founding

Susan, “hate?” Such a strong word even in jest. Please forgive me if I’m having a strong reaction, because that word was forbidden in my house. I could slip with a cuss every now and then but “hate” got me grounded. As well, it stings that without knowing the man I am, you hate ME. After a life of sacrifice, risk taking, hard work and applying skillful means I sold my company in June 2019 and my last day as co-founder and CFO was 1/31/2020. I retired from business to pursue my 2nd dream which was to write. In college I was a talented writer and when pitched to change from an accounting to English major I told the professor that I was so poor growing up I didn’t want to be a poor starving artist. So I started my first company when I was 23. It was rough. Often having to choose between putting fuel in my car or food in my belly. The car won every time. When the pandemic hit In March of 2020 I sat in my empty home and wrote and wrote and wrote. Then in July, my lawyer, a native of Barbados, told me of his country’s Welcome Stamp Program that gave 1 year visas to remote workers. In September 2020 I closed up my modest home in Tarrytown, NY, said goodbye to my parents, (it was the last time I saw my dad, he died of Covid in 2021) and rented a beachfront house in Barbados where I wrote my first novel. From my desk I looked out onto the turquoise waters and drew on its inspiration. I knew I was living the writers dream and that was motivating. I knew I owed it to people like you and writers everywhere to sit my ass down and write the best novel I could. In early 2022 I put out my first novel. You still hate me for that? Again, I know you’re exaggerating, however words matter. Instead of hating me, be motivated that a kid from Jersey who instead of being born with a silver spoon had a wooden one with splinters was able to rise above my difficult circumstances and after 30 years of sacrifice was Writing Fiction on the Beach (my substack name). Money is a tool, that is all it is. That tool can be used to fix, repair, and build or to wreck and destroy. I choose the former.

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I used the word “hate” because that’s the word David used in the title of his piece!! He used it playfully and that’s how I used it. I’m sorry if you took it seriously. I would never have used it if David hadn’t titled his piece the way he did.

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Where from Jersey? I’m from Newark.

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founding

I’m from Rutherford!

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Sep 8Liked by david roberts

I hope that you understand now that I absolutely DO NOT hate you!! I don’t even hate Nicole Kidman (who I also mentioned in the comment, so people would know I was kidding.) I especially wouldn’t want to offend a Jersey boy!! And one who, much like myself, has had to work hard for every good thing that’s he’s earned—including that oceanb view!!

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founding

Thank you Susan! I appreciate your words and I get you as well. Tone can be difficult over text because like you said, I don’t know you, so I have zero context and I take full responsibility for the effect your words had on me. That they were not directed to me in any way. Thank you for helping me process some of the anxiety I feel about how isolating I feel to achieve all I have and sometimes feel like I’m resented for it. I know you don’t, but that’s what came up and that’s my work, so thank you again for showing me where I need to do more work. 🙏🏼

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Sep 7Liked by david roberts

We need to figure out some ways to distinguish between rich and RICH! I am a member of the other 98% and cannot afford to live in the Hamptons. I certainly can’t afford to buy my own politician. But thanks to a combination of diligent savings and inheritance, it would be disingenuous to pretend that I’m not rich. Perhaps “middle-class rich,” “very rich,” and “super rich” would work.

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