I’ll spin it around — if you’d been direct (“I’d bet you actually haven’t read any Wharton, what was The House of Mirth about”), she would have been rightly offended.
Your passive attack offered her an opportunity to think to herself, “maybe I shouldn’t be such a blowhard.” It’s the more haimish way to poke someone.
Through this painfully astute piece, I experienced both your tablemate’s desperate need for acceptance and your own disdainful irritation. I have lived your side of this drama but not hers. By suggesting that you write something suitably “intelligent” for her blog, I think she was not so much trying to be generous as casting about for a friend. Your position in the world must have made you a particularly attractive target, but I suspect she is lonely as well as clueless. Her conversational gambit shows she has no idea what meaningful connection really is. I feel for this woman even though I’d treat her no better than you did.
David, I always look forward to, and appreciate, your writing. Bringing the sometimes uncomfortable issues, up for air and sunlight. Moreover, using yourself and your vulnerability to gently touch that part of our mind or soul that can do with a gentle nudge.
Everyone knows the house of mirth is the best Wharton book 😍. I had a similar realization after a recent lunch, where I engaged in this behavior that I realized I had to stop doing, which is when people who are “civilians” (what we DC folk call political hobbyists) talk to me about politics, and fawn over their favorite politicians, who they really look up to. I often tell them what problematic people they actually are because I know them and either I’ve worked for them or someone I know has. And it really bursts their bubble. Why not let them have their idol? Why do I have to crap on it? To be fair, they ask me what these ppl are like but sometimes honesty actually isn’t the best policy—kindness is.
Kirsten, I can imagine what you describe very well. Politicians may be the riskiest set of people to ask "What are they really like?" given that we civilians see them almost always in staged circumstances. Plus the fact that they are surrounded by people who want something from them––a job or a favor–– and so always flatter. Thanks for the comment!
The state of nice blokedom includes the ability to self-reflect, and not being outwardly obnoxious elevates you to the status of a mensch, which is even better than nice blokeishness.
This is my favorite of all your writings so far. First, it is hilarious and thoughtful. Second, I must confess I am now practicing avoidance of large swaths of wealthy people in New York City more and more. The desperation to be relevant, to have the best soccer coach, the best yoga teacher, the best seats at the Knick game, and all of those things is just sad. It is nearly funny and certainly ironic that so many with so much are stuck in the crooked hotel of ego insufficiency. The name dropping, book dropping, and empty lunches are tiring and soul killing. You were not mean. You were in a Darwinian process of soul survival. Eventually one must divest themselves of endless bullshit. I will only charge you 160 dollars for this therapy session and insight David.
This is a great point. There are insufferable people from all walks of life. This woman’s brand of it just happened to be tainted with class/status issues.
Perspective. This is a first world problem. Dealing with boring, conversation hoarding people at dinner parties… people who are so insecure they have to one up themselves by bragging about their kids schools and sporting accomplishments, etc.. then pretending to be well read.. this happens at all class levels though. In smaller towns it’s whose kid is the star football player, etc.. But today, I am overwhelmed with what’s happening in Asheville and other areas devastated by Helene.. It’s hard to put into words how we take for granted the luxury of being annoyed by people when others don’t even have fresh water.. not critiquing your post - it’s well written and well thought out and you make great points.. I am just conflicted about the world right now.
I really enjoy your posts! I hope you know I wasn’t criticizing you or your topic.. I’ve just had my mind on people who live in those areas.. it’s so devastating. So easy to take things for granted.
So what are we supposed to talk about at dinner parties? I tend to avoid talking about politics and world affairs at these events. Last Passover, someone went on ranting about how schools are horrible these days and even criticized me for not wanting my (then) 5 year old on a folding chair (I wasn’t allowed to sit on folding chairs at his age just in case of accidents). There was no children’s table since there weren’t enough kids. Talking about the food is boring and weather will lead to a discussion on climate change which can be polarizing.
I usually ask people what they’ve been up to, ask about kids, yes.. I guess my point was that some people don’t realize they go on and on and it’s a one way conversation. I’m one of those people who tends to spend entire parties talking to one or two people. I hate small talk. Politics is divisive but I’m part of an organization called Braver Angels that encourages civil conversation between people of different parties. We can usually find common ground. My favorite conversations are when my friends meet for coffee and lunch and we just dish about everything…
I think everyone has something interesting to say if you ask them questions. Or self-deprecating stories can always set things off. This was not a dinner party we hosted. We really think about inviting people who are conversationally fun and generous meaning that they invite others to talk.
Very interesting. Do you consider that you have or haven't well integrated your shadow? Based on what I know of you by your writings, it seems to me you have.
I see that in successful men they have usually integrated their shadow, and have a killer instinct built-in, latent, but obvious to all. This means they can make their way in the world, and also be successful with women.
Men who haven't integrated their shadow appear unbalanced, both weak and possibly cruel.
I'm not sure what my shadow is. I will say that having been married for about forty years to a woman I increasingly adore, I consider my "success with women" to be safely in hand.
The shadow is the Jungian Shadow, the dark side of our personality. When its properly integrated, we own this dark side and can control it, when its not integrated its always there and comes out unpredictably. In men, its the recognition and ownership of aggression and its management, when its not properly integrated, it results in ‘nice guy’ weak men, who have the aggression but haven’t mastered it.
What did you eat? This above all is important. Wonderful- a play would do this encounter justice so well also. I’m on the opposite side of this as I kill people like her with kindness - another form of subtle meanness. I act fascinated and at some point they decide I’m their best friend while I’m nodding and thinking about my next novel.
David, what an essay - and perhaps it’s a testament to your readers’ liking of you that they are rushing to your defense. I won’t do you or your essay this disservice.
I respect that you are telling us you were indeed cruel. That - the honesty not the cruelty -deserves our respect
I can easily remember many times sitting on both sides of this conversation. Even now at 40 in some rooms I am the powerful, in others the nervous pretender.
I know what it is to be thrust into situations like this. My first job after college was society and Spotlight editor for a tiny society rag. The Spotlight page featured a lot of pics of area social happenings. It was my job to show up, take pictures of the organizers or honorees and get out. I felt very out of my depth. I’d never been to such places. I wasn’t expected to fit in — my role was closer to the wait staff’s than anything. It was torture at first! Nowadays, I’ve occasionally been invited to one of these venues as a guest or speaker, and I remember how out of my depth and impressed I was.
But I used to commit the opposite sin: When covering a social event at someone’s private home, I recall often noticing the lack of books — or a library of light froth with no good literature— and feeling judgy and superior about that. Even when in poverty, I’ve always had a good library, even if only of thrift-store paperback editions. Those folks never suspected the badly dressed poor girl from the paper was judging them, but she was.
Reading well is an exquisite act of both self-care and permission to judge. I won't stop judging––that's an instinct, but I can keep quiet about it as you did. Thanks, Michelle, for your comment.
I loved this post! To use an expression I actually dislike, this post was very relatable.
I felt sorry for the woman, briefly. When I was in special ed, if we had visitors come through (grad students, administrators from other schools) I would hurriedly trot out my academic accomplishments to prove to them that I did not have any intellectual disabilities and was actually quite intelligent.
The woman also reminded me of an aunt of mine who was a blazing social climber. When she would visit my childhood home for holidays—always at least an hour late—we would be regaled with the “oh my dears” (my dad and I would mercilessly make fun of her when she was gone). “Oh my dear, we were invited to the Los Altos County Club for dinner and it was so elegant!”
She spoke with this weird accent—it almost sounded British or South African (their family had lived in South Africa for a few years for my engineer Uncle’s job).
She grew up on a farm in Ohio! Spare me your dulcet tones lady!
For all her social climbing, she kind of wrecked her kids by imposing goals upon her kids that were a step or two beyond their ability, so they would crash and burn trying to meet her academic/professional vision of who they could be—that would fit in better with her social status fantasies.
Relatable! I can equally imagine a conversation at any social strata where the newcomer is haranguing a host that happens to know more about the subject than the nube claims to. It could be sports, or trucks, or cooking… It is still painful to watch or participate in.
The evil 😈 that comes to the fore can only take so much!
Thanks Teri. The aunt you describe reminds me of another character in Austen's Emma, Mrs. Elton, a shameless name dropper and social climber. And using children as social pawns is doubly destructive.
Could’ve been worse!
I’ll spin it around — if you’d been direct (“I’d bet you actually haven’t read any Wharton, what was The House of Mirth about”), she would have been rightly offended.
Your passive attack offered her an opportunity to think to herself, “maybe I shouldn’t be such a blowhard.” It’s the more haimish way to poke someone.
Shana Tovah!
Shana Tovah to you! Generous comment.
Love it! I'd love to have those kind of responses at the ready for people like that. What a great story! Shana Tovah!
Through this painfully astute piece, I experienced both your tablemate’s desperate need for acceptance and your own disdainful irritation. I have lived your side of this drama but not hers. By suggesting that you write something suitably “intelligent” for her blog, I think she was not so much trying to be generous as casting about for a friend. Your position in the world must have made you a particularly attractive target, but I suspect she is lonely as well as clueless. Her conversational gambit shows she has no idea what meaningful connection really is. I feel for this woman even though I’d treat her no better than you did.
Thanks Rona.
Well said, Rona. I was going to write a comment, but read this one first and it so encapsulates my response, I decided not to bother.
Didn’t Jane Austin date Mr Rochester ?!!! I’ll have to repent on Friday. Deposed Roman Catholic am I envious Judaism.
David, I always look forward to, and appreciate, your writing. Bringing the sometimes uncomfortable issues, up for air and sunlight. Moreover, using yourself and your vulnerability to gently touch that part of our mind or soul that can do with a gentle nudge.
Everyone knows the house of mirth is the best Wharton book 😍. I had a similar realization after a recent lunch, where I engaged in this behavior that I realized I had to stop doing, which is when people who are “civilians” (what we DC folk call political hobbyists) talk to me about politics, and fawn over their favorite politicians, who they really look up to. I often tell them what problematic people they actually are because I know them and either I’ve worked for them or someone I know has. And it really bursts their bubble. Why not let them have their idol? Why do I have to crap on it? To be fair, they ask me what these ppl are like but sometimes honesty actually isn’t the best policy—kindness is.
Kirsten, I can imagine what you describe very well. Politicians may be the riskiest set of people to ask "What are they really like?" given that we civilians see them almost always in staged circumstances. Plus the fact that they are surrounded by people who want something from them––a job or a favor–– and so always flatter. Thanks for the comment!
The state of nice blokedom includes the ability to self-reflect, and not being outwardly obnoxious elevates you to the status of a mensch, which is even better than nice blokeishness.
So I'm still eligible to be included in the Order of Nice Blokes!
Thanks Terry.
Agree completely. You are still eligible for the Order of Nice Blokes. Your sins are pathetically small potatoes.
Indeed.
😁
I gasped, then laughed. I loved this post, thank you.
This is my favorite of all your writings so far. First, it is hilarious and thoughtful. Second, I must confess I am now practicing avoidance of large swaths of wealthy people in New York City more and more. The desperation to be relevant, to have the best soccer coach, the best yoga teacher, the best seats at the Knick game, and all of those things is just sad. It is nearly funny and certainly ironic that so many with so much are stuck in the crooked hotel of ego insufficiency. The name dropping, book dropping, and empty lunches are tiring and soul killing. You were not mean. You were in a Darwinian process of soul survival. Eventually one must divest themselves of endless bullshit. I will only charge you 160 dollars for this therapy session and insight David.
I'll pay in kind at our next lunch!
Thanks for the kind words Gideon.
This isn’t just wealthy people. If you’ve met any immigrant, middle class Asian parents, oy! 🤦♀️
This is a great point. There are insufferable people from all walks of life. This woman’s brand of it just happened to be tainted with class/status issues.
Perspective. This is a first world problem. Dealing with boring, conversation hoarding people at dinner parties… people who are so insecure they have to one up themselves by bragging about their kids schools and sporting accomplishments, etc.. then pretending to be well read.. this happens at all class levels though. In smaller towns it’s whose kid is the star football player, etc.. But today, I am overwhelmed with what’s happening in Asheville and other areas devastated by Helene.. It’s hard to put into words how we take for granted the luxury of being annoyed by people when others don’t even have fresh water.. not critiquing your post - it’s well written and well thought out and you make great points.. I am just conflicted about the world right now.
I get your point. If and when i had something both new and true to write about the real problems, I won't hesitate. Thanks Midlife for the comment.
I really enjoy your posts! I hope you know I wasn’t criticizing you or your topic.. I’ve just had my mind on people who live in those areas.. it’s so devastating. So easy to take things for granted.
No, not at all. I totally get it. I wish I had some valuable perspective to offer on what's going on in the wider world.
So what are we supposed to talk about at dinner parties? I tend to avoid talking about politics and world affairs at these events. Last Passover, someone went on ranting about how schools are horrible these days and even criticized me for not wanting my (then) 5 year old on a folding chair (I wasn’t allowed to sit on folding chairs at his age just in case of accidents). There was no children’s table since there weren’t enough kids. Talking about the food is boring and weather will lead to a discussion on climate change which can be polarizing.
I usually ask people what they’ve been up to, ask about kids, yes.. I guess my point was that some people don’t realize they go on and on and it’s a one way conversation. I’m one of those people who tends to spend entire parties talking to one or two people. I hate small talk. Politics is divisive but I’m part of an organization called Braver Angels that encourages civil conversation between people of different parties. We can usually find common ground. My favorite conversations are when my friends meet for coffee and lunch and we just dish about everything…
I think everyone has something interesting to say if you ask them questions. Or self-deprecating stories can always set things off. This was not a dinner party we hosted. We really think about inviting people who are conversationally fun and generous meaning that they invite others to talk.
Very interesting. Do you consider that you have or haven't well integrated your shadow? Based on what I know of you by your writings, it seems to me you have.
I see that in successful men they have usually integrated their shadow, and have a killer instinct built-in, latent, but obvious to all. This means they can make their way in the world, and also be successful with women.
Men who haven't integrated their shadow appear unbalanced, both weak and possibly cruel.
I'm not sure what my shadow is. I will say that having been married for about forty years to a woman I increasingly adore, I consider my "success with women" to be safely in hand.
The shadow is the Jungian Shadow, the dark side of our personality. When its properly integrated, we own this dark side and can control it, when its not integrated its always there and comes out unpredictably. In men, its the recognition and ownership of aggression and its management, when its not properly integrated, it results in ‘nice guy’ weak men, who have the aggression but haven’t mastered it.
What did you eat? This above all is important. Wonderful- a play would do this encounter justice so well also. I’m on the opposite side of this as I kill people like her with kindness - another form of subtle meanness. I act fascinated and at some point they decide I’m their best friend while I’m nodding and thinking about my next novel.
Your way, Molly, is kinder. As for food I cannot recall. Thanks for the comment.
David, what an essay - and perhaps it’s a testament to your readers’ liking of you that they are rushing to your defense. I won’t do you or your essay this disservice.
I respect that you are telling us you were indeed cruel. That - the honesty not the cruelty -deserves our respect
I can easily remember many times sitting on both sides of this conversation. Even now at 40 in some rooms I am the powerful, in others the nervous pretender.
Thank you for your keen eye on class.
My aim, jen, was to set this down so I would not repeat that cruelty. Thanks for the comment and your honesty back at me.
Cheers David your writing and thoughtfulness are appreciated by many of us…
I know what it is to be thrust into situations like this. My first job after college was society and Spotlight editor for a tiny society rag. The Spotlight page featured a lot of pics of area social happenings. It was my job to show up, take pictures of the organizers or honorees and get out. I felt very out of my depth. I’d never been to such places. I wasn’t expected to fit in — my role was closer to the wait staff’s than anything. It was torture at first! Nowadays, I’ve occasionally been invited to one of these venues as a guest or speaker, and I remember how out of my depth and impressed I was.
But I used to commit the opposite sin: When covering a social event at someone’s private home, I recall often noticing the lack of books — or a library of light froth with no good literature— and feeling judgy and superior about that. Even when in poverty, I’ve always had a good library, even if only of thrift-store paperback editions. Those folks never suspected the badly dressed poor girl from the paper was judging them, but she was.
Reading well is an exquisite act of both self-care and permission to judge. I won't stop judging––that's an instinct, but I can keep quiet about it as you did. Thanks, Michelle, for your comment.
I always cringe at that scene in Emma. You’re not all bad, dad! You have your merits.
I loved this post! To use an expression I actually dislike, this post was very relatable.
I felt sorry for the woman, briefly. When I was in special ed, if we had visitors come through (grad students, administrators from other schools) I would hurriedly trot out my academic accomplishments to prove to them that I did not have any intellectual disabilities and was actually quite intelligent.
The woman also reminded me of an aunt of mine who was a blazing social climber. When she would visit my childhood home for holidays—always at least an hour late—we would be regaled with the “oh my dears” (my dad and I would mercilessly make fun of her when she was gone). “Oh my dear, we were invited to the Los Altos County Club for dinner and it was so elegant!”
She spoke with this weird accent—it almost sounded British or South African (their family had lived in South Africa for a few years for my engineer Uncle’s job).
She grew up on a farm in Ohio! Spare me your dulcet tones lady!
For all her social climbing, she kind of wrecked her kids by imposing goals upon her kids that were a step or two beyond their ability, so they would crash and burn trying to meet her academic/professional vision of who they could be—that would fit in better with her social status fantasies.
Relatable! I can equally imagine a conversation at any social strata where the newcomer is haranguing a host that happens to know more about the subject than the nube claims to. It could be sports, or trucks, or cooking… It is still painful to watch or participate in.
The evil 😈 that comes to the fore can only take so much!
Thanks Teri. The aunt you describe reminds me of another character in Austen's Emma, Mrs. Elton, a shameless name dropper and social climber. And using children as social pawns is doubly destructive.