Oh wow, David, I hung on every word of this essay. Your description of your mother's scary temper and how your relationship with her was shaped in large part by your reaction to how she interacted with your rebellious sister resonated profoundly with me. So did your descriptions of Eda, her closeness to her family, and her strong Long Island Jewish American Princess accent (an accent I heard frequently during my four years at Syracuse University from 1978-82). Maybe some people will read "Old Money vs. New Money" and wonder how your mother could be so judgmental about someone's accent, but I've witnessed that attitude. It sure rang true to me. I'm glad your mother found some meaning later in her life, and that you finally had a good relationship with her. Sorry it didn't happen sooner, but better later than never.
Thanks Debby. It's been tempting for me to remember my mother solely as she emerged over her last two decades. And even then, like any of us, she was not a complete angel.
This is a great piece. As a young person, it’s very interesting to read about stories like this set in a totally unfamiliar context. The names and places change, but the situations will repeat themselves as long as humans walk on this earth.
This was such a gripping story, and one that I can relate to in myriad ways (though not overtly). Thank you for sharing. And for recommending the book “Second Act”, which I will be purchasing immediately. I’m so glad to have been connected with you, and to have found your work, which intermingles depth, heart and fact-of-the-matter in such a compelling and intimate way.
This sounds like the plot in Crazy Rich Asians. Too bad there was no mahjong battle!
I’m around the same age as your mom was then and my first thought at her attitude (in addition to her snobbery) is perimenopause. People at this age are going through a weird time (and these days, weirder. I have friends with kids in university and others with toddlers!) socially and hormonally. I’m not making excuses for her, just that a lot of us aren’t really sure of ourselves and our place anymore. It’s like being in middle school again.
I chuckled a little here, David, because that's exactly what my husband said when I brought up perimenopause as a possible cause for the clash between his mom and me years ago. But this is exactly why I'm enjoying your writing. You write from an open-minded and honest male perspective on topics that we often only get the female take on. I appreciate this very much!
David, this rings some (painful) bells for me. My mother was a terrible snob and somehow got away with it. She (and my dad) approved of my intended husband from the get-go so that was never a problem. But she was disparaging about anyone who didn’t meet her standards of social class and, especially, education. I believe this only worsened as she aged. Her comments would make me cringe. Your description of not resisting her as a young college graduate and of the “catastrophe” of being rejected by her ring so true. Parents can be so hurtful, at the same time that they are loving. Thanks for this honest story.
Thanks so much Debbie. My mother became far less judgmental in her late bloomer phase as she worked closely with a wide variety of people as colleagues and as patients. When I think of the transformation, it really was miraculous.
Great story. You have had very interesting experiences. Snobbery is certainly an ugly phenomenon, and its unpleasant to live among people afflicted with it, or be the recipient of it. Interestingly, snobbery doesn't always go one-way, especially in the UK, where a genuine reverse snobbery exists.
My experience is that in the UK, the working class, over time, has developed a sense of reverse snobbery (its a well known phenomenon, actually) where anyone socio-economically above it is somehow unworthy. A working class person (at least one with a chip on their shoulder) would disdain the 'middle class' especially, which in the UK has a little different meaning than in North America.
It exists everywhere- though it's quite true what you say, the British have made an art form of it - and a few pretty good books and movies about it as well!
I grew up absorbing a very reverse-snobbery sensibility, but I think my maternal grandmother’s snobbery just skipped a generation to make it’s way to me—I eventually rebelled.
It exists on this side of the Atlantic as well, I think. All the comments about “nepo babies” and even “you went to boarding /privatw school? What was it like?” (This depends on the tone) can seem offensive at times. Or maybe I’m sensitive. Also, comments on hiring nannies instead of sending your child to daycare (what’s the diff? Either way, you’re outsourcing. And if you have multiple preschoolers and babies, it’s actually more economical).
This sad and troubling essay suggests other narrative pathways you can take when the time is right. For instance, I’m curious about your mother. Few people change as profoundly as it seems she did after launching and leading projects of her own. Careers can be transformative for women who didn’t expect them (mine certainly was for me). Snobbery? Oh, yes. My parents didn’t have much money but disdained those who had maple furniture from Sears, ordered Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, and listened to Mantovani.
Thanks Rona. I think she changed because she never lost that fire of wanting to do something she considered to be productive. She turned to bridge, then to religion (she became Orthodox Jewish for over a decade). She had very bad, self-inflicted health issues that I think were a way of releasing her passions. Those health issues led her to medicine and the decision to do something at Weill Cornell.
I too was ‘the good child’. When a sibling is the target of a parent’s wrath, we do our best to stay out of the spotlight. A sad tale. I’m so glad your mother eventually found her feet and that you found Debbie. All the best dear David.
This story resonates with me. My Jewish family was middle class but saw itself as highly intellectual. And yes there was snobbery toward Jews with New York accents, business striving non bookish other Jews. I think it all comes from insecurity about your place in tne world.
What a fascinating, well-written story this is, David. My experience growing up on a horse and cattle ranch in Montana in the 60s was completely different from yours--and from the values, viewpoints and culture of people on the East Coast in general. The US has so many different cultures--some of them are more foreign to me than my adopted countries of Austria and Ireland have ever been!
Thanks for the comment Clarice. I'm linking to a joint post I did with my friend Josh Dolezal who is from Montana and writes about his Montana experiences.
In the post, we wrote about the differences and some surprising similarities in our education.
I enjoyed reading the conversation between you and Josh--thank you for the link.
My family was not religious, my father had an MA in Agricultural Economics from Purdue, and believed strongly in education, As a result, my parents paid my way through a BA in German and French and an MA in linguistics. My passion was always to live in other countries and learn languages so I could communicate with and understand people of other cultures.
I loved learning and thought about going on for a Ph.D. but did not want to get stuck in the pettiness, jealousy and backbiting of academia! I also loved stories by Chaim Potok and C.S. Lewis and typed all of my college papers on a portable electric typewriter using a great deal of white-out.
So there are many commonalities despite our different upbringings!
Thanks, David, for another insightful piece with depth of analysis and understanding. You may be your own best therapist! It's surprising and maybe it shouldn't be, what a big role fear plays in relationships within families and with significant others (friends, girl friends, husbands, wives, children, colleagues). You land squarely on the fear of rejection and even put some light on the opposite, the fear of acceptance. You asked about snobs in our lives. I remember few, avoided them like the plague, with one or two exceptions whom I had to endure for reasons of work. I tried making those short term, either by contract or by leaving a job on two occasions. Grateful for my family where equity and inclusion were practiced long term.
Some further thoughts on snobbery. I don't personally encounter much today (directed at me, at least) but I see two areas of life in 2024 rife with snobbery: 1) The bien-pensant hatred of Donald Trump and 2) the attitudes held by some members of the academic PHD class.
Whatever one thinks of Donald Trump (and personally, I am indifferent), he CAN legitimately be criticized for a whole variety of sins, past and present. But there is something in his brash manner and style, that seriously offends a certain cohort, and I can only attribute that to snobbery.
Having a PHD means only on thing - one likes formal academic training (i.e. school) and one may also wish to study the fine details of a very specialized topic. However, there is a tendency of some of the academic PHD set to consider themselves 'better' that others (possibly: smarter, wiser or more moral) and this can only be described as snobbery.
I will admit that Trump offends me and some of the offense is probably due to snobbery as he strikes me as the epitome of every bad quality of what is no longer politically correct to call a "prole." He contains all the bigotry and disdain for finer things and none of the work ethic and family values that one would usually find combined in a background such as his.
Indeed, his style is the personification of 'new money' and indeed his style is brash and trashy. Personally I could care less, that kind of thing doesn't bother me. But it absolutely does bother some people, to them it is extremely off-putting.
I guess none of us escape. In my conscious mind I pride myself on not being a snob and yet I see myself in that comment. I hate Donald Trump with a passion. I think he deserves that hate for a long list of reasons that are very solid but I have to admit that his brash style does contribute to my hatred and that is not a solid reason. You're right. It's snobbery. I'm seriously curious what my reaction would be to him if I thought all his policies were excellent but he still had that style...
That's an interesting question. If style is closely linked to character, then I then I think k would still have trouble accepting him as president. I had a similar issue with Bill Clinton after the Lewinsky scandal.
I don't think the particular kind of "style" we're talking about here is linked to character. My father was born into wealth. He walked away from it as a Young Man so I was not born into any kind of wealth but I was still raised by someone who had grown up with it and all the "style" that that entails. Things like handling silverware "properly", speaking the Queens English, not being garish Etc. And so, I grew up with a disdain for things that, to me, seemed "trashy". I have never been able to shake those judgments that arise within me when I'm around this kind of style but I have, with several decades of work, learned how to recognize them when they arise and recognize that they are not something that I control and that I don't have to identify with them. I guess that's another one of the keys of snobbery. There's thinking something and then there's believing what you think.
This felt like reading fiction! I reread the line about Eda wearing white gloves a few times...in 1982? I can't imagine. Were they like Cyndi Lauper, Madonna style? It's unlikely! Your insight about your fear of girls because of your Mom is deep, self-knowledge that may have guided your own parenting to be so different. Thanks for sharing David. This kind of insight is what our world needs right now, to be able to put a human face and feelings on people who live differently than we do.
Thanks Donna. The gloves were dainty, not Madonna/Desperately Seeking Susan or Cindy Lauper style. I think Eda was reaching back to an era when she imagined my mother might have been a "Lady who Lunched."
David, this wonderful essay hit a little to close to the bone of my own experience. Temper. Wrath. And all the ways those are used to control....The question--in terms of snobbery--is interesting--I never thought that was what it was--as my mother was largely uneducated, born in Brooklyn to poor Italian immigrants--but maybe, at its heart, that's what it was--a kind of snobbery that comes with wanting to shed the burden of feeling (as an immigrant) that you don't quite measure up. Interesting question to ponder...
Thanks Diana. You're the second commenter to link snobbery and insecurity. And I think there's truth in that connection. I also have no doubt that my mother was reflecting the way she grew up as well and the social expectations that were put oil her.
Oh wow, David, I hung on every word of this essay. Your description of your mother's scary temper and how your relationship with her was shaped in large part by your reaction to how she interacted with your rebellious sister resonated profoundly with me. So did your descriptions of Eda, her closeness to her family, and her strong Long Island Jewish American Princess accent (an accent I heard frequently during my four years at Syracuse University from 1978-82). Maybe some people will read "Old Money vs. New Money" and wonder how your mother could be so judgmental about someone's accent, but I've witnessed that attitude. It sure rang true to me. I'm glad your mother found some meaning later in her life, and that you finally had a good relationship with her. Sorry it didn't happen sooner, but better later than never.
Thanks Debby. It's been tempting for me to remember my mother solely as she emerged over her last two decades. And even then, like any of us, she was not a complete angel.
This is a great piece. As a young person, it’s very interesting to read about stories like this set in a totally unfamiliar context. The names and places change, but the situations will repeat themselves as long as humans walk on this earth.
This was such a gripping story, and one that I can relate to in myriad ways (though not overtly). Thank you for sharing. And for recommending the book “Second Act”, which I will be purchasing immediately. I’m so glad to have been connected with you, and to have found your work, which intermingles depth, heart and fact-of-the-matter in such a compelling and intimate way.
Thanks Cici. Very much appreciated.
I’m very pleased to hear about your mothers’ late blooming but also distressed by the rest of your story!
Thanks Henry.
This sounds like the plot in Crazy Rich Asians. Too bad there was no mahjong battle!
I’m around the same age as your mom was then and my first thought at her attitude (in addition to her snobbery) is perimenopause. People at this age are going through a weird time (and these days, weirder. I have friends with kids in university and others with toddlers!) socially and hormonally. I’m not making excuses for her, just that a lot of us aren’t really sure of ourselves and our place anymore. It’s like being in middle school again.
Thank you. Really interesting comment,, Cynthia. I never thought about that possibility. Not a usual thought for a son about his mother!
I chuckled a little here, David, because that's exactly what my husband said when I brought up perimenopause as a possible cause for the clash between his mom and me years ago. But this is exactly why I'm enjoying your writing. You write from an open-minded and honest male perspective on topics that we often only get the female take on. I appreciate this very much!
David, this rings some (painful) bells for me. My mother was a terrible snob and somehow got away with it. She (and my dad) approved of my intended husband from the get-go so that was never a problem. But she was disparaging about anyone who didn’t meet her standards of social class and, especially, education. I believe this only worsened as she aged. Her comments would make me cringe. Your description of not resisting her as a young college graduate and of the “catastrophe” of being rejected by her ring so true. Parents can be so hurtful, at the same time that they are loving. Thanks for this honest story.
Thanks so much Debbie. My mother became far less judgmental in her late bloomer phase as she worked closely with a wide variety of people as colleagues and as patients. When I think of the transformation, it really was miraculous.
love hearing this — what a wonderful memory to have of her
Great story. You have had very interesting experiences. Snobbery is certainly an ugly phenomenon, and its unpleasant to live among people afflicted with it, or be the recipient of it. Interestingly, snobbery doesn't always go one-way, especially in the UK, where a genuine reverse snobbery exists.
Reverse snobbery meaning anything flagrantly upper class is disparaged? That's interesting.
My experience is that in the UK, the working class, over time, has developed a sense of reverse snobbery (its a well known phenomenon, actually) where anyone socio-economically above it is somehow unworthy. A working class person (at least one with a chip on their shoulder) would disdain the 'middle class' especially, which in the UK has a little different meaning than in North America.
It exists everywhere- though it's quite true what you say, the British have made an art form of it - and a few pretty good books and movies about it as well!
I grew up absorbing a very reverse-snobbery sensibility, but I think my maternal grandmother’s snobbery just skipped a generation to make it’s way to me—I eventually rebelled.
It exists on this side of the Atlantic as well, I think. All the comments about “nepo babies” and even “you went to boarding /privatw school? What was it like?” (This depends on the tone) can seem offensive at times. Or maybe I’m sensitive. Also, comments on hiring nannies instead of sending your child to daycare (what’s the diff? Either way, you’re outsourcing. And if you have multiple preschoolers and babies, it’s actually more economical).
Yes, I would say that the reverse snobbery, when you see it manifested, is related to resentment.
This sad and troubling essay suggests other narrative pathways you can take when the time is right. For instance, I’m curious about your mother. Few people change as profoundly as it seems she did after launching and leading projects of her own. Careers can be transformative for women who didn’t expect them (mine certainly was for me). Snobbery? Oh, yes. My parents didn’t have much money but disdained those who had maple furniture from Sears, ordered Reader’s Digest Condensed Books, and listened to Mantovani.
Thanks Rona. I think she changed because she never lost that fire of wanting to do something she considered to be productive. She turned to bridge, then to religion (she became Orthodox Jewish for over a decade). She had very bad, self-inflicted health issues that I think were a way of releasing her passions. Those health issues led her to medicine and the decision to do something at Weill Cornell.
I just found her photos online. You made me want to know who she was in her glory.
I too was ‘the good child’. When a sibling is the target of a parent’s wrath, we do our best to stay out of the spotlight. A sad tale. I’m so glad your mother eventually found her feet and that you found Debbie. All the best dear David.
Thanks so much Beth.
You're a great writer. It's so interesting hearing about the intricacies of life from a Old Money perspective.
Overbearing mothers are definitely something that isn't limited by class.
Thanks Thalia and very true..
This story resonates with me. My Jewish family was middle class but saw itself as highly intellectual. And yes there was snobbery toward Jews with New York accents, business striving non bookish other Jews. I think it all comes from insecurity about your place in tne world.
Thanks NSYA. I suppose insecurity is another way of wanting, or needing, people to know that one's own way iOS the best.
What a fascinating, well-written story this is, David. My experience growing up on a horse and cattle ranch in Montana in the 60s was completely different from yours--and from the values, viewpoints and culture of people on the East Coast in general. The US has so many different cultures--some of them are more foreign to me than my adopted countries of Austria and Ireland have ever been!
Thanks for the comment Clarice. I'm linking to a joint post I did with my friend Josh Dolezal who is from Montana and writes about his Montana experiences.
In the post, we wrote about the differences and some surprising similarities in our education.
https://robertsdavidn.substack.com/p/montana-meets-manhattan-two-adventures
I enjoyed reading the conversation between you and Josh--thank you for the link.
My family was not religious, my father had an MA in Agricultural Economics from Purdue, and believed strongly in education, As a result, my parents paid my way through a BA in German and French and an MA in linguistics. My passion was always to live in other countries and learn languages so I could communicate with and understand people of other cultures.
I loved learning and thought about going on for a Ph.D. but did not want to get stuck in the pettiness, jealousy and backbiting of academia! I also loved stories by Chaim Potok and C.S. Lewis and typed all of my college papers on a portable electric typewriter using a great deal of white-out.
So there are many commonalities despite our different upbringings!
Thanks, David, for another insightful piece with depth of analysis and understanding. You may be your own best therapist! It's surprising and maybe it shouldn't be, what a big role fear plays in relationships within families and with significant others (friends, girl friends, husbands, wives, children, colleagues). You land squarely on the fear of rejection and even put some light on the opposite, the fear of acceptance. You asked about snobs in our lives. I remember few, avoided them like the plague, with one or two exceptions whom I had to endure for reasons of work. I tried making those short term, either by contract or by leaving a job on two occasions. Grateful for my family where equity and inclusion were practiced long term.
Gary, you make an interesting point about fear of acceptance and fear of rejection. I suspect there's a strong link. Never thought about that. Thanks!
Some further thoughts on snobbery. I don't personally encounter much today (directed at me, at least) but I see two areas of life in 2024 rife with snobbery: 1) The bien-pensant hatred of Donald Trump and 2) the attitudes held by some members of the academic PHD class.
Whatever one thinks of Donald Trump (and personally, I am indifferent), he CAN legitimately be criticized for a whole variety of sins, past and present. But there is something in his brash manner and style, that seriously offends a certain cohort, and I can only attribute that to snobbery.
Having a PHD means only on thing - one likes formal academic training (i.e. school) and one may also wish to study the fine details of a very specialized topic. However, there is a tendency of some of the academic PHD set to consider themselves 'better' that others (possibly: smarter, wiser or more moral) and this can only be described as snobbery.
Steven,
I will admit that Trump offends me and some of the offense is probably due to snobbery as he strikes me as the epitome of every bad quality of what is no longer politically correct to call a "prole." He contains all the bigotry and disdain for finer things and none of the work ethic and family values that one would usually find combined in a background such as his.
And probably the galaxy’s biggest stereotype of “new money.” I mean, gold EVERYWHERE!!!
Indeed, his style is the personification of 'new money' and indeed his style is brash and trashy. Personally I could care less, that kind of thing doesn't bother me. But it absolutely does bother some people, to them it is extremely off-putting.
I guess none of us escape. In my conscious mind I pride myself on not being a snob and yet I see myself in that comment. I hate Donald Trump with a passion. I think he deserves that hate for a long list of reasons that are very solid but I have to admit that his brash style does contribute to my hatred and that is not a solid reason. You're right. It's snobbery. I'm seriously curious what my reaction would be to him if I thought all his policies were excellent but he still had that style...
That's an interesting question. If style is closely linked to character, then I then I think k would still have trouble accepting him as president. I had a similar issue with Bill Clinton after the Lewinsky scandal.
I don't think the particular kind of "style" we're talking about here is linked to character. My father was born into wealth. He walked away from it as a Young Man so I was not born into any kind of wealth but I was still raised by someone who had grown up with it and all the "style" that that entails. Things like handling silverware "properly", speaking the Queens English, not being garish Etc. And so, I grew up with a disdain for things that, to me, seemed "trashy". I have never been able to shake those judgments that arise within me when I'm around this kind of style but I have, with several decades of work, learned how to recognize them when they arise and recognize that they are not something that I control and that I don't have to identify with them. I guess that's another one of the keys of snobbery. There's thinking something and then there's believing what you think.
This felt like reading fiction! I reread the line about Eda wearing white gloves a few times...in 1982? I can't imagine. Were they like Cyndi Lauper, Madonna style? It's unlikely! Your insight about your fear of girls because of your Mom is deep, self-knowledge that may have guided your own parenting to be so different. Thanks for sharing David. This kind of insight is what our world needs right now, to be able to put a human face and feelings on people who live differently than we do.
Thanks Donna. The gloves were dainty, not Madonna/Desperately Seeking Susan or Cindy Lauper style. I think Eda was reaching back to an era when she imagined my mother might have been a "Lady who Lunched."
David, this wonderful essay hit a little to close to the bone of my own experience. Temper. Wrath. And all the ways those are used to control....The question--in terms of snobbery--is interesting--I never thought that was what it was--as my mother was largely uneducated, born in Brooklyn to poor Italian immigrants--but maybe, at its heart, that's what it was--a kind of snobbery that comes with wanting to shed the burden of feeling (as an immigrant) that you don't quite measure up. Interesting question to ponder...
Thanks Diana. You're the second commenter to link snobbery and insecurity. And I think there's truth in that connection. I also have no doubt that my mother was reflecting the way she grew up as well and the social expectations that were put oil her.