I love this glimpse into human nature. I told myself I’d never enter that silly frenzy…but you should’ve seen the number of times I edited every email I sent the Trinity admissions team.
I’m so glad my parents just sent me to an in home daycare and a very inexpensive church based after school program! The public schools I went to in rural North Carolina were pretty bad but they were desegregated so I grew up in an environment that was both black and white. Growing up poor has some major advantages even if it is overall awful. Later on I went to a special public school for gifted kids that also had amazing arts programs. There was no cost but I had to ride the bus 45 minutes from north Raleigh to the center of town. It gave me a chance at a better life. It’s part of why I’m in favor of charter schools. Still I’m glad I wasn’t in a bubble of wealth.
There's definitely downsides to raising kids in the "bubble." That's how i was raised so I was used to it. It has a tendency to soften you and put blinders on.
I went to nursery school at Park Ave Methodist in the late '70s, despite being (nominally) Jewish. I think this caused my grandparents more angst than it did my parents, even though none of my grandparents were religious. I went to Horace Mann for kindergarten. Then my parents moved to Westchester. Anyway, according to my parents, private school admissions in NYC in the '70s was as crazy as it was in the '80s/'90s or even now.
Interesting. I went to Browning for elementary school. I wore glasses as a five year old because I had a lazy eye. I remember being told that a few of the other boys' schools turned me down because they thought my glasses were an indication of some sort of mental fallibility. Funny how some things stick. The Westchester schools are excellent!
Love this so much! I remember being in a complete panic-losing sleep over preschool admission (in Connecticut not NYC) but still just as worrisome. I love how you tied in your old report card with how your spatial ineptitude became the demise of your daughter’s future! You should write a book!!!
It was such relief to leave NYC and all its various hyper ambitions. I attended private school in NYC and then public high school. That transition was profound. I was old enough, tenth grade, to understand how sheltered I’d been from reality and the devastating lessons of that shelter. One of the profound lessons of private school education never talked about is this simple lesson- that you (or your children) could not survive outside the bubble of private school (with everyone else). I HAD to go to my school because the public school would have eaten me alive.. extrapolate that lesson and you don’t have resiliency etc. There is a basic insecurity threaded through a population with disproportionate power. And an “othering.” Of course, there is truly much to fear in public education, especially these days. But do we ever talk on these terms? I’m so grateful to have taken economics with a room that included Black students who suddenly became vocal and animated from, yes, the back of the room, when the subject hit close to home. I saw immediately that their lack of participation was not indifference or whatever judgement I’d unwittingly carried in my person for where they chose to sit, but the content and relevance of what we were learning to their lives and history. I felt deep shame for all I’d bought into. The discussion of taking unemployment among a mix of socio economic classes was also something I’ll never forget. And then there was the day we discussed affirmative action… None of this would have ever happened in my private school. It was life altering.
Eliza, thanks for the comment. No question that I was sheltered as were my children.
But your overall point is valid. More risk of a certain softness and blinders by being raised in the bubble. And the demographics of NYC private schools tend to be a lopsided economic barbell with mostly extremely affluent families on one side and scholarship families on the other with not enough in between.
And no critical mass of scholarship students to affect overall culture of the environment. This was the critical tipping point for my economics classroom at Murrow, a HS where mostly we were still sorted. But not in certain required classes that I dreaded then but cherish in hindsight.
David, as different as your world is from mine, it remains the same in many ways. Human nature remains relatively consistent across economic spectrums. The outward signs may seem different, but the inward motivations are frequently the same.
I and my children are products of public education. I have no regrets. I always saw the private school system in places like NYC as more of a status symbol than an education. St. Louis has a very similar construct, except that the private schools are predominantly Catholic.
Ahhhh…school applications…thank goodness that’s over for us for now. The plan for my little guy was to attend a small nursery school that was an unofficial feeder to Toronto’s various independent schools and then a boys only school until he graduated from high school. We applied to two boys only schools and a co-ed school. One of the boys’ schools was elementary and middle only so we’d have to go somewhere else for high school. He got in there and to the co-ed school but was waitlisted for the third. He’s at the co-ed right now. It wasn’t what I had planned - the boys’ school I had wanted him to go to was sort of nostalgic for me since it was the guys-only school near my (girls only) alma mater!
After my daughter spent two years at Rodeph Sholom, we moved to Toronto and sent her for a year to a school in Forest Hill where we lived. It was a nice school with nice families.
This is so timely as I am going through the NYC preschool process for my 2 year old right now! I will say that it is not as competitive as it used to be in the 80s, 90s and aughts— after the creation of 3K and UPK, as well as so many children under 5 leaving the city in the last decade, even the most competitive schools are up for grabs (and I am not of considerable wealth or connection).
Appreciate you saying this A A, we are soon to be first time parents with no real connections in Manhattan and are really nervous about the process. Did you go through the Catholic / Jewish school route?
Hi! No, we didn't--We are on the UWS, so most of the known private preschools here tend to lack a religious affiliation. I used Parents League and the local Facebook mom groups to figure out my list of schools. Are you on the UES?
Cool, good to know! I’ll look into those, thank you. We are currently in GV but are considering moving to UWS this year. Have you found the moms groups helpful?
But you know all the admissions talk to each other — they figured you’d definitely get into Emanuel so they shouldn’t waste a Rodeph space on you, since you wouldn’t accept it. Or maybe Debbie was right and it was the puzzle after all!
It would be great if you wrote a book about what you most care about. If you want. But your Substack posts sometimes are like chapters from your book. And you've already built up a presence on social media that most successful authors would admire. So you are sort of writing a book for everyone even if it is not out in hardcover, paperback or ebook format. That is a cool thing that you and Substack do.
I was born and raised in BHills. Groucho was founding member oh Hillcrest CC. The very very snobby waspy LA CC didn’t allow Jews (not sure but today a few and maybe token blacks) I’m a goyim who preferred Groucho and Hillcrests yummy food. F##k em if you can’t join em
I love the fact that my area doesn’t have exclusive schools. Almost everyone goes to public school. There’s are Catholic and Lutheran options if you are religious and can afford it. I favor Finland’s approach.
Ha! You have brought some fond and not so fond memories of our experience with our 2 year old in the NYC nursery school. At the time our whole world and status in it (at least it felt so at the time) revolved daily in hope my wife and I could get our son into an appropriate nursery program. I remember the awareness and the disappointments as well as hopes that followed each “interview”. Additionally we had a new born daughter who surely would follow in his foot steps - so there was seemingly much at stake for the future our families education, employability and general well being. I’m glad we both experienced it and lived through the process-finding a program that he and we both loved. We were even more glad we opted out before we put our daughter and ourselves through it a second time. Life in the suburbs was and still is good for us. For those with the connections and means, as far as NYC private schools- I say go for it! It’s certainly a unique experience and education. On the other hand- For those that may not have the means and connections , may I suggest they be open to options outside of NYC. Our kids and family have thrived in a more New York suburban lifestyle- and the city and all of its splendor is a brief train ride away.
Thanks for the comment Russell. Logically, the NYC suburbs make great sense given the high quality of the schools. My wife and I were both raised in Manhattan so that's where we felt most comfortable, which is after all the most important thing.
I remember an NPR(?) piece about a woman who taught at a poor NYC public school. She had a very bright black student who she thought would thrive at an elite girls private school that offered scholarships. She took that girl and others to visit the school. The kid she was mentoring got angry and left, and lost contact with her teacher. Years later, the teacher found her and asked her why she became so angry that she disappeared and quit going to school. The young woman said that this was the first time she had seen how rich people lived. She had never seen anything like it outside of TV and she knew TV was fake. Only it wasn’t. This was worse: it was the manifestation of how the people who ran the city cared nothing for poor kids in decrepit crumbling public schools. The meritocracy is a lie.
That is a chilling story. There are organizations that are effective in placing kids form inner city neighborhoods in the elite schools. One is called Prep for Prep. But it doesn't change the calculus of the system.
Found the piece. This American Life Episode 550: Three Miles. Chana Joffe-Walt was the reporter. I encourage you to listen; its perspective surprised me. I’m the product of public school, Pell Grants, and merit scholarships (law school). But I’m old (67) and the days of college/post grad costs being low have left us. You wrote about the scarcity phenomenon, even though it’s contrived—and it goes from preschool to Harvard admissions. Don’t let people in, and they will pay you exorbitantly to get in. And how many of those rich privileged kids have turned into public servants, as I did? Vanishingly few. It’s disgraceful.
Very interesting. In Montreal, we lived adjacent to this Establishment culture, and could opt in or out at any time. We mostly opted out of the this madness.
I love this glimpse into human nature. I told myself I’d never enter that silly frenzy…but you should’ve seen the number of times I edited every email I sent the Trinity admissions team.
But of course! It does somewhat inure to later application processes.
I’m so glad my parents just sent me to an in home daycare and a very inexpensive church based after school program! The public schools I went to in rural North Carolina were pretty bad but they were desegregated so I grew up in an environment that was both black and white. Growing up poor has some major advantages even if it is overall awful. Later on I went to a special public school for gifted kids that also had amazing arts programs. There was no cost but I had to ride the bus 45 minutes from north Raleigh to the center of town. It gave me a chance at a better life. It’s part of why I’m in favor of charter schools. Still I’m glad I wasn’t in a bubble of wealth.
There's definitely downsides to raising kids in the "bubble." That's how i was raised so I was used to it. It has a tendency to soften you and put blinders on.
I went to nursery school at Park Ave Methodist in the late '70s, despite being (nominally) Jewish. I think this caused my grandparents more angst than it did my parents, even though none of my grandparents were religious. I went to Horace Mann for kindergarten. Then my parents moved to Westchester. Anyway, according to my parents, private school admissions in NYC in the '70s was as crazy as it was in the '80s/'90s or even now.
Interesting. I went to Browning for elementary school. I wore glasses as a five year old because I had a lazy eye. I remember being told that a few of the other boys' schools turned me down because they thought my glasses were an indication of some sort of mental fallibility. Funny how some things stick. The Westchester schools are excellent!
Love this so much! I remember being in a complete panic-losing sleep over preschool admission (in Connecticut not NYC) but still just as worrisome. I love how you tied in your old report card with how your spatial ineptitude became the demise of your daughter’s future! You should write a book!!!
Thanks Nicole, for the kind comment and the encouragement!
It was such relief to leave NYC and all its various hyper ambitions. I attended private school in NYC and then public high school. That transition was profound. I was old enough, tenth grade, to understand how sheltered I’d been from reality and the devastating lessons of that shelter. One of the profound lessons of private school education never talked about is this simple lesson- that you (or your children) could not survive outside the bubble of private school (with everyone else). I HAD to go to my school because the public school would have eaten me alive.. extrapolate that lesson and you don’t have resiliency etc. There is a basic insecurity threaded through a population with disproportionate power. And an “othering.” Of course, there is truly much to fear in public education, especially these days. But do we ever talk on these terms? I’m so grateful to have taken economics with a room that included Black students who suddenly became vocal and animated from, yes, the back of the room, when the subject hit close to home. I saw immediately that their lack of participation was not indifference or whatever judgement I’d unwittingly carried in my person for where they chose to sit, but the content and relevance of what we were learning to their lives and history. I felt deep shame for all I’d bought into. The discussion of taking unemployment among a mix of socio economic classes was also something I’ll never forget. And then there was the day we discussed affirmative action… None of this would have ever happened in my private school. It was life altering.
Eliza, thanks for the comment. No question that I was sheltered as were my children.
But your overall point is valid. More risk of a certain softness and blinders by being raised in the bubble. And the demographics of NYC private schools tend to be a lopsided economic barbell with mostly extremely affluent families on one side and scholarship families on the other with not enough in between.
And no critical mass of scholarship students to affect overall culture of the environment. This was the critical tipping point for my economics classroom at Murrow, a HS where mostly we were still sorted. But not in certain required classes that I dreaded then but cherish in hindsight.
David, as different as your world is from mine, it remains the same in many ways. Human nature remains relatively consistent across economic spectrums. The outward signs may seem different, but the inward motivations are frequently the same.
I and my children are products of public education. I have no regrets. I always saw the private school system in places like NYC as more of a status symbol than an education. St. Louis has a very similar construct, except that the private schools are predominantly Catholic.
Thanks for the comment, Matthew. As to motivation, it's the Groucho Marx syndrome of wanting to belong to circles that won't admit you.
Ahhhh…school applications…thank goodness that’s over for us for now. The plan for my little guy was to attend a small nursery school that was an unofficial feeder to Toronto’s various independent schools and then a boys only school until he graduated from high school. We applied to two boys only schools and a co-ed school. One of the boys’ schools was elementary and middle only so we’d have to go somewhere else for high school. He got in there and to the co-ed school but was waitlisted for the third. He’s at the co-ed right now. It wasn’t what I had planned - the boys’ school I had wanted him to go to was sort of nostalgic for me since it was the guys-only school near my (girls only) alma mater!
Cynthia,
After my daughter spent two years at Rodeph Sholom, we moved to Toronto and sent her for a year to a school in Forest Hill where we lived. It was a nice school with nice families.
The public school or BSS?
It was the public school.
This is so timely as I am going through the NYC preschool process for my 2 year old right now! I will say that it is not as competitive as it used to be in the 80s, 90s and aughts— after the creation of 3K and UPK, as well as so many children under 5 leaving the city in the last decade, even the most competitive schools are up for grabs (and I am not of considerable wealth or connection).
Glad to hear it!
Appreciate you saying this A A, we are soon to be first time parents with no real connections in Manhattan and are really nervous about the process. Did you go through the Catholic / Jewish school route?
Hi! No, we didn't--We are on the UWS, so most of the known private preschools here tend to lack a religious affiliation. I used Parents League and the local Facebook mom groups to figure out my list of schools. Are you on the UES?
Cool, good to know! I’ll look into those, thank you. We are currently in GV but are considering moving to UWS this year. Have you found the moms groups helpful?
Yes, definitely! I will send you a message to chat further
But you know all the admissions talk to each other — they figured you’d definitely get into Emanuel so they shouldn’t waste a Rodeph space on you, since you wouldn’t accept it. Or maybe Debbie was right and it was the puzzle after all!
I'm betting on the puzzle!
Debbie is hilarious
I know how to spell crazy and properly in Yiddish. Goyim I yam . One who sadly admits having the deli put mayo on my pastrami and rye.
Jennifer, if you ever decide to convert, the mayo will not be held against you.
I sing the body Jewish electric ⚡️ 🤣. I was sprinkled the water of Catholicism. I’m an in between er 🌹
It would be great if you wrote a book about what you most care about. If you want. But your Substack posts sometimes are like chapters from your book. And you've already built up a presence on social media that most successful authors would admire. So you are sort of writing a book for everyone even if it is not out in hardcover, paperback or ebook format. That is a cool thing that you and Substack do.
Thanks Larry for the kind comment and encouragement.
From his autobiography Groucho and Me (1959)
I sent the club a wire stating, "PLEASE ACCEPT MY RESIGNATION. I DON'T WANT TO BELONG TO ANY CLUB THAT WILL ACCEPT PEOPLE LIKE ME AS A MEMBER".
Telegram to the Friar's Club of Beverly Hills to which he belonged, as recounted in Groucho and Me (1959), p. 321
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Groucho_Marx
I was reminded of that as well !
I was born and raised in BHills. Groucho was founding member oh Hillcrest CC. The very very snobby waspy LA CC didn’t allow Jews (not sure but today a few and maybe token blacks) I’m a goyim who preferred Groucho and Hillcrests yummy food. F##k em if you can’t join em
Yes, GM captured the absurdity of human reaction so well.
I love the fact that my area doesn’t have exclusive schools. Almost everyone goes to public school. There’s are Catholic and Lutheran options if you are religious and can afford it. I favor Finland’s approach.
Michelle, thanks for the comment. And I realize how absurd the system looks.
Ha! You have brought some fond and not so fond memories of our experience with our 2 year old in the NYC nursery school. At the time our whole world and status in it (at least it felt so at the time) revolved daily in hope my wife and I could get our son into an appropriate nursery program. I remember the awareness and the disappointments as well as hopes that followed each “interview”. Additionally we had a new born daughter who surely would follow in his foot steps - so there was seemingly much at stake for the future our families education, employability and general well being. I’m glad we both experienced it and lived through the process-finding a program that he and we both loved. We were even more glad we opted out before we put our daughter and ourselves through it a second time. Life in the suburbs was and still is good for us. For those with the connections and means, as far as NYC private schools- I say go for it! It’s certainly a unique experience and education. On the other hand- For those that may not have the means and connections , may I suggest they be open to options outside of NYC. Our kids and family have thrived in a more New York suburban lifestyle- and the city and all of its splendor is a brief train ride away.
Thanks for the comment Russell. Logically, the NYC suburbs make great sense given the high quality of the schools. My wife and I were both raised in Manhattan so that's where we felt most comfortable, which is after all the most important thing.
I remember an NPR(?) piece about a woman who taught at a poor NYC public school. She had a very bright black student who she thought would thrive at an elite girls private school that offered scholarships. She took that girl and others to visit the school. The kid she was mentoring got angry and left, and lost contact with her teacher. Years later, the teacher found her and asked her why she became so angry that she disappeared and quit going to school. The young woman said that this was the first time she had seen how rich people lived. She had never seen anything like it outside of TV and she knew TV was fake. Only it wasn’t. This was worse: it was the manifestation of how the people who ran the city cared nothing for poor kids in decrepit crumbling public schools. The meritocracy is a lie.
Ellen,
That is a chilling story. There are organizations that are effective in placing kids form inner city neighborhoods in the elite schools. One is called Prep for Prep. But it doesn't change the calculus of the system.
Found the piece. This American Life Episode 550: Three Miles. Chana Joffe-Walt was the reporter. I encourage you to listen; its perspective surprised me. I’m the product of public school, Pell Grants, and merit scholarships (law school). But I’m old (67) and the days of college/post grad costs being low have left us. You wrote about the scarcity phenomenon, even though it’s contrived—and it goes from preschool to Harvard admissions. Don’t let people in, and they will pay you exorbitantly to get in. And how many of those rich privileged kids have turned into public servants, as I did? Vanishingly few. It’s disgraceful.
Very interesting. In Montreal, we lived adjacent to this Establishment culture, and could opt in or out at any time. We mostly opted out of the this madness.