David - enjoyed this intriguing post. I read The Brothers Karamazov earlier this year so this story is still somewhat fresh in my mind. The Grand Inquisitor is a beautiful chapter and the story as a whole is a fascinating exploration of faith.
I don't have the answer to your question as I am only human and not god. What I have found interesting though is that frequently our fragmentation happens at the macro level. Groups tend to fight or hate or have animosity towards other groups. At the micro level, individual to individual we frequently see the reverse. These are not universal rules obviously but I wonder if there is something in the herd mentality that causes us to fragment or follow paths we would not normally take on our own.
It is an intriguing dilemma to ponder and one that is timely for our world.
Beautiful conclusion in such a difficult time. Thank you. I must admit that I did laugh out loud when I read your son’s response to the rabbis story! So fresh and honest. A subtext too seems to be how important it is to have the courage to tell like you see it.. Thank you, David. Happy Holidays to you and your family.
Here is my take- the rich man discovers the poor man taking his sacrifice and eating it. He becomes enraged and kills the poor man. He keeps on leaving the loaf of bread but there is no one there to take it now, no God accepting the sacrifice. I think that faith based on the believe of our own goodness is a tricky issue. I (catholic) belief that faith is redemption when we are humble to understand that we are just not enough. Not in a self-loathing way, but in a way where you, the rich man, understand that your deficiencies are just as bad as mine, the poor man. And the love of God is the only thing that will compensate for this. Then and only then can we feel like we are equals.
NB: the "you" and "me" adjudications are merely ilustratory. Me mentioning I was raised catholic is to provide the background of my take on life and redemption.
I truly enjoyed your post and I think your son showed some remarkable courage to say that where he did ;)
You make a good point about no one is enough alone. Implicit in the loaf of bread story is a community that worked, at least within the confines of the story.
But Faith based on our own goodness can always be challenged by asking who is the arbiter of goodness. Thanks for a comment that made me consider some other points.
And, I think my son knew very well he was being mischievous with his answer!
Well, David, there lies the conundrum of religion and the belief that God has a hand in human behavior. For what one might describe as "bad" people, religion becomes a justification to act immorally...I did not want to take away your civil rights, or impress you into slavery, or burn you at the stake, but it was God's will. There are scores of everyday acts that fall into that category, many currently advocated by Mike Johnson. For what one might describe as "good" people, religion and the belief that God has a hand in human behavior has no relevance...they behave morally simply because they believe it is the right thing to do. There is a scene in Lawrence of Arabia where Prince Faisel, speaking to the cynical American reporter, says, "For Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. For me, it is merely good manners. I leave it to you to decide which is the more...reliable." That notion can be extrapolated to many areas of human interaction, which leaves the question of whether religion and the belief that God has any hand whatever in human behavior makes the human species more or less likely to act with generosity, courtesy, fairness, self-sacrifice and many other traits that just about every religion defines as righteous.
I come down on the side that opposes the GI's prescriptions and I take it so do you! Given the choice, I'll take manners over belief in God any day. That's a great quote!
Religion has a long tally sheet of crimes and benefits. But I do agree with the GI that Man needs something to believe in.
I agree. The problem is when what should be confined to a personal code of behavior, good or bad, or a personal search for meaning is applied in a broader sense as code of behavior for society. Religion is all too prone to being appropriated by hypocrites who use a subjective definition of religious dogma to justify behavior that they would, or should, be embarrassed to ascribe to personal choice. So, Mike Johnson, the perfect example, has an easier time saying the Bible instructs him to discriminate against, say, gay people (you actually can take your pick) than to say that he was doing so because he finds them personally offensive, scary, or, perhaps, too close to home. Anyone is free to believe what they like, but that does not absolve them from taking responsibility for the choices they make.
I can tell you he's very much in favor of free speech so he would want to be able to say whatever popped into his preteen, mischievous mind. But, since he's 33 now and a real mensch , he'd not want to put the poor junior rabbi in a difficult spot.
"People can be kind and generous and noble for no other reason than their belief in their own goodness and the goodness of others." Thanks for these words, David. That belief is what can save us, once again.
The Brothers Karamazov I read first in my teens and then again in my thirties. The section of the Grand Inquisitor remains indelible for me. I do think we live now in a dangerous time while we wait to see if individuals will find the way to stand and speak and vote against the terror that awaits and knows no bounds.
Wonderful story of your son and weaving in the Grand Inquisitor and Brothers Karamazov. I’m a believer in Hashem with strong trust and faith. Your question brings up so many variances. Here’s my answer—Our fragmentation is both a bug and feature of the human condition. Ever since Eve took that bite. (G-d’s reaction— Really? You just opened up a can of worms— in the apple too.) We became complicated fragments of G-d. I could go on but it would be a treatise. Oy.
Your comment reminded me of one of the many explanations for the traditional breaking of he glass at a Jewish wedding. And I never put together before that Eve didn't resist Satan's temptation. but Jesus did.
I love that I have to google crap based on your writing and comments. Hehehe. Which breaking glass explanation has to do with Eve and Satan? I only know the ones regarding marriage being delicate, breaking the old, bring in the new, etc.
I’m sick of that myth about Eve being the weak or “failed” one. The distrust, punishment, & outright hate toward the females on this earth continues to this day.
Fair. It was a man's world when origin stories like adam and Eve were developed.
Your comment made me google the difference in temptation/impulse resistance between men and women. My instinct was that women were better able to resist impulses and temptation and that's what the science shows.
The Cognitive Assessment of Impulsivity and Sex Differences
"In the 1970s, Mischel created the delay of gratification paradigm to test children's ability to resist temptation and forgo a small immediate reward to obtain a larger delayed reward [26]. Mischel and Underwood [26] were the first to report that female preschoolers were able to wait for significantly longer periods of time to obtain the larger reward in comparison to their male counterparts. More recently, a meta-analysis was conducted on 33 experiments using the delay of gratification paradigm by Silverman [27]. The meta-analysis revealed a female advantage in the capacity to delay gratification although the effect size of the female advantage in delay of gratification is relatively small; however, this may be owing to instruments that lack precision and small sample sizes. Based on these findings, it appears as though female individuals are better suited to delay gratification and resist temptation in comparison to male individuals and that this sex difference emerges early in development."
Parents of younger children must be exempted from any restrictions on bribery!
We just landed in New York. Wishing you a terrific trip, and I'm sure you are very well armed for the journey!
You have my mind thinking 🤔. Thank you 🙏
David - enjoyed this intriguing post. I read The Brothers Karamazov earlier this year so this story is still somewhat fresh in my mind. The Grand Inquisitor is a beautiful chapter and the story as a whole is a fascinating exploration of faith.
I don't have the answer to your question as I am only human and not god. What I have found interesting though is that frequently our fragmentation happens at the macro level. Groups tend to fight or hate or have animosity towards other groups. At the micro level, individual to individual we frequently see the reverse. These are not universal rules obviously but I wonder if there is something in the herd mentality that causes us to fragment or follow paths we would not normally take on our own.
It is an intriguing dilemma to ponder and one that is timely for our world.
Yes— group think can be dangerous.
Thanks Matthew for the comment. Perhaps there is an ideal between individuality and chaos.
The chapter does raise many questions. And credit Dostoyevsky for so powerfully and creatively exploring them!
You have my mind thinking, too, David.
WOW what a tour de force.
Thank you for your deep exploration
More later
after I have pondered
"Perhaps, however, in the case of our divisions,
we should fear the cure more than the disease."
Indeed.
The current Grand Inquisitor offers us the Taliban path.
The far right paranoid black and white semi-psychotic road
where one party rules and different thought is banned.
Alas, the far left just offers a different form of ideological control.
Democracy is messy.
But our Constitution will protects us as we build!
And as we tell all the Grand Inquisitors to get lost.
The center must hold.
We Americans are a free people.
Now and forever free.
We shall listen and think and learn from each other
and from the people of other countries.
We shall renew our patriotic bonds
and rise up where we belong
leading the democracies of the free world.
Beautiful conclusion in such a difficult time. Thank you. I must admit that I did laugh out loud when I read your son’s response to the rabbis story! So fresh and honest. A subtext too seems to be how important it is to have the courage to tell like you see it.. Thank you, David. Happy Holidays to you and your family.
Same to you Jonathan!
Loved the story. I could see my grandson doing exactly the same thing.
Here is my take- the rich man discovers the poor man taking his sacrifice and eating it. He becomes enraged and kills the poor man. He keeps on leaving the loaf of bread but there is no one there to take it now, no God accepting the sacrifice. I think that faith based on the believe of our own goodness is a tricky issue. I (catholic) belief that faith is redemption when we are humble to understand that we are just not enough. Not in a self-loathing way, but in a way where you, the rich man, understand that your deficiencies are just as bad as mine, the poor man. And the love of God is the only thing that will compensate for this. Then and only then can we feel like we are equals.
NB: the "you" and "me" adjudications are merely ilustratory. Me mentioning I was raised catholic is to provide the background of my take on life and redemption.
I truly enjoyed your post and I think your son showed some remarkable courage to say that where he did ;)
You make a good point about no one is enough alone. Implicit in the loaf of bread story is a community that worked, at least within the confines of the story.
But Faith based on our own goodness can always be challenged by asking who is the arbiter of goodness. Thanks for a comment that made me consider some other points.
And, I think my son knew very well he was being mischievous with his answer!
Well, David, there lies the conundrum of religion and the belief that God has a hand in human behavior. For what one might describe as "bad" people, religion becomes a justification to act immorally...I did not want to take away your civil rights, or impress you into slavery, or burn you at the stake, but it was God's will. There are scores of everyday acts that fall into that category, many currently advocated by Mike Johnson. For what one might describe as "good" people, religion and the belief that God has a hand in human behavior has no relevance...they behave morally simply because they believe it is the right thing to do. There is a scene in Lawrence of Arabia where Prince Faisel, speaking to the cynical American reporter, says, "For Major Lawrence, mercy is a passion. For me, it is merely good manners. I leave it to you to decide which is the more...reliable." That notion can be extrapolated to many areas of human interaction, which leaves the question of whether religion and the belief that God has any hand whatever in human behavior makes the human species more or less likely to act with generosity, courtesy, fairness, self-sacrifice and many other traits that just about every religion defines as righteous.
I come down on the side that opposes the GI's prescriptions and I take it so do you! Given the choice, I'll take manners over belief in God any day. That's a great quote!
Religion has a long tally sheet of crimes and benefits. But I do agree with the GI that Man needs something to believe in.
I agree. The problem is when what should be confined to a personal code of behavior, good or bad, or a personal search for meaning is applied in a broader sense as code of behavior for society. Religion is all too prone to being appropriated by hypocrites who use a subjective definition of religious dogma to justify behavior that they would, or should, be embarrassed to ascribe to personal choice. So, Mike Johnson, the perfect example, has an easier time saying the Bible instructs him to discriminate against, say, gay people (you actually can take your pick) than to say that he was doing so because he finds them personally offensive, scary, or, perhaps, too close to home. Anyone is free to believe what they like, but that does not absolve them from taking responsibility for the choices they make.
I'm curious how your adult Andrew would respond given today's environment?
I can tell you he's very much in favor of free speech so he would want to be able to say whatever popped into his preteen, mischievous mind. But, since he's 33 now and a real mensch , he'd not want to put the poor junior rabbi in a difficult spot.
"People can be kind and generous and noble for no other reason than their belief in their own goodness and the goodness of others." Thanks for these words, David. That belief is what can save us, once again.
Great piece. Reread the book during the pandemic. Favorite scene
The Brothers Karamazov I read first in my teens and then again in my thirties. The section of the Grand Inquisitor remains indelible for me. I do think we live now in a dangerous time while we wait to see if individuals will find the way to stand and speak and vote against the terror that awaits and knows no bounds.
We have ten months to do whatever we can. And as they say in sports, leave it all on the field.
Fascinating.
The following verse is my most favorite list and my least favorite list at the same time:
“Truly you are a God who hides himself.” (Isaiah 45:15)
Love this. I do believe if we focus on every day miracles— even the “small” ones, we will see the face of G-d.
Thanks. Now I love that verse too. It can be taken in so may ways!
Wonderful story of your son and weaving in the Grand Inquisitor and Brothers Karamazov. I’m a believer in Hashem with strong trust and faith. Your question brings up so many variances. Here’s my answer—Our fragmentation is both a bug and feature of the human condition. Ever since Eve took that bite. (G-d’s reaction— Really? You just opened up a can of worms— in the apple too.) We became complicated fragments of G-d. I could go on but it would be a treatise. Oy.
Your comment reminded me of one of the many explanations for the traditional breaking of he glass at a Jewish wedding. And I never put together before that Eve didn't resist Satan's temptation. but Jesus did.
Thanks for the comment!
I love that I have to google crap based on your writing and comments. Hehehe. Which breaking glass explanation has to do with Eve and Satan? I only know the ones regarding marriage being delicate, breaking the old, bring in the new, etc.
Your comment provoked two separate thoughts, one on fragmentation/breaking the glass and another one on Eve/Jesus/temptation.
So, you gave me a two for one thought boost!
I’m sick of that myth about Eve being the weak or “failed” one. The distrust, punishment, & outright hate toward the females on this earth continues to this day.
Fair. It was a man's world when origin stories like adam and Eve were developed.
Your comment made me google the difference in temptation/impulse resistance between men and women. My instinct was that women were better able to resist impulses and temptation and that's what the science shows.
The Cognitive Assessment of Impulsivity and Sex Differences
"In the 1970s, Mischel created the delay of gratification paradigm to test children's ability to resist temptation and forgo a small immediate reward to obtain a larger delayed reward [26]. Mischel and Underwood [26] were the first to report that female preschoolers were able to wait for significantly longer periods of time to obtain the larger reward in comparison to their male counterparts. More recently, a meta-analysis was conducted on 33 experiments using the delay of gratification paradigm by Silverman [27]. The meta-analysis revealed a female advantage in the capacity to delay gratification although the effect size of the female advantage in delay of gratification is relatively small; however, this may be owing to instruments that lack precision and small sample sizes. Based on these findings, it appears as though female individuals are better suited to delay gratification and resist temptation in comparison to male individuals and that this sex difference emerges early in development."
That delayed gratification & resistance to temptation definitely shows up very clearly when sex is involved. 😉
That was not my place to say, but clearly so!
When you consider the possibility/probability/assurance that God is revealed in the actions of humans, it is both feature and bug.
Elegant solution.