I admire anyone who has a strong faith. I’m a cradle Catholic. I attend Mass sporadically. My kids are baptized. My mother attends Mass daily. It’s gotten her through the loss of her eldest son in a plane crash and watching her husband of 60 years succumb to Alzheimer’s during Covid. We all need faith.. I believe that true genuine faith is not divisive… however politics is. Thanks again for a great post.
“Because I’m part of forming something far bigger than myself. And there’s a holiness to that act of creation.⁷
Many rabbis would say that this sentiment is an enactment of your belief in the Jewish God. (And that you don’t need to believe the Torah is divinely written… it’s squishier.) I’ve got plenty of books to recommend if you’re interested!
The classic text on God as being found in interpersonal relations is Martin Buber’s I and Thou. I think your essay channels this book the most.
A contemporary memoir on finding meaning in Judaism from a formerly secular center left democrat is Here All Along by Sarah Hurwitz. It’s a broad, 101-style book.
Hmm, you make me reflect on my childhood, David, and remembering how I was moved and influenced by reading about great figures in history: great orators like Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, and--boy-- did Dr. King give me my first emotional chills on the back of my neck in fifth grade, when I read quotations from him (and this was when I was by myself in our grade school library).
I'd have to say I was moved by ethics first, whether in Ecclesiastes or other writing. I had learned about God from our Presbyterian Church and I always talked to God, even as a kid--maybe after I had climbed a tree and was alone on a weekend morning. Then, later in life, I choose to leave my Presbyterianism because I started studying it more formally and its Calvinist roots didn't quite sit right with my experiential idea of a Loving God (predestination).
I was very lucky to soon, thereafter, stumble upon Quakers, which suits me (my understanding of God) completely! But I'd say ethics was my first influence, and then I found religion. Maybe that is backwards, lol. Thank you for the reflective question.
And cute story about you and your son, and what a thinker he was, at such a young age!
Yes CK! And they were for women equally being able to preach as did the men because of their conviction of equality...and that was way back in 1650!! Incredible! Maybe inequality is a MODERN invention in human history....
You describe "equality" as if women will provide exactly the same leadership that a man will. Not sure if that's right, and if so, not sure how to explain the difference, but I question it.
Hello Gavin! I believe I wrote "women equally being able to preach," which I intended to mean equal opportunity. I did not intend to assert anything about leadership style being one way or the other.... Pardon if that came across as so.
Thanks for the comment Mmerikani. I don't think you got it backwards at all. And Dr.King was after all a pastor; hard to imagine his soaring rhetoric without his being brought up in the church.
Calvinism is so smug! I'm rich, which proves I'm one of the Elect. Very convenient belief for the wealthy Calvinist!
David, thanks for this look inside your identity and faith journey. I think that wrestling with matters of faith and identity is a good thing. I was raised in a devout Catholic home but haven't been a practicing Catholic for at least 25 years. Yet when I recently had surgery and was asked about my religious preference, I defaulted to the comfort of knowing a priest would be at my side if things went sideways. In many ways this identity has nothing to do with ideologies as I tend to be more like you thinking that we have very little capability of understanding or knowing any sort of higher power. I think that my identity with that faith of my childhood has more to do with the cultural rhythms and rituals than anything else. I am not too sure what I think about God but like Jacob, I will keep wrestling with him to see what comes of it.
Yes, the rhythms and rituals, that sounds so true to me, too. There‘s a comfort in the songs, the rituals, the mass - like a familiar home. Even though I don‘t attend Catholic mass anymore. But for instance, having a Catholic monk at my mom‘s funeral felt very comforting to me. And he did a wonderful job, from visiting us at home until the actual funeral service - he was such a blessing.
Yes, it brings a calm and a depth to it - and he was so personal, he didn’t follow strict rituals, he just wanted to give us a space to commemorate and honour my mom, which is not a given with the Catholic Church.
“People are not necessarily wired to practice ethical behavior unmoored from religious belief or religious traditions and teachings. I know I’m not.”
I find this really interesting and generally agree with you, David. I’m not a religious person, though I wouldn’t label myself an atheist either. I was raised Catholic and while I have a variety of problems with the church, I do think religion can be a useful way to help people—especially children—develop a moral code and understand why it’s important to act ethically. I certainly don’t think it’s impossible to do that without religion, and sometimes religious dogma can be counterproductive in that regard. I guess I’m saying that having some sort of faith-based tradition can be a good heuristic for solidifying one’s moral code, as long as you don’t accept anything about it too blindly.
Exactly. I sent my kids to a Jewish day school where they learned morals and values. Of course we taught them this at home but many of today’s public schools offer a skewed view of history and CA just passed an ethnic studies curriculum that teaches falsehoods about Jews.
I agree with you. I think religions have a lot of foundational wisdom to provide about ethical behavior. Dogma and infallibility can be counterproductive. In your travels you experience many different religions so perhaps you'll pst about that at some point. I guess your Cairo post was about that city's "religion" of Murphy's law.
I agree. I enjoyed your piece. Encountered a good illustration of good foundational wisdom vs dogma: Judaism has excellent ethical principles on interpersonal conduct, including challenging misguided beliefs (such as supporting antisemitic politicians because of expediency) and prohibiting lashon hara, or speaking ill of someone just to damage or harass them. It does not, in contrast, say we should not push back against such misguided beliefs because the person who holds them also happens to be Jewish - even when that person is extremely thin-skinned about it. (Regrettably, you’d have to read the underlying post to know that this person is describing an accurate critique of misguided politics).
After almost 30 years of leaving the religion of my childhood, I still find myself fascinated with the different beliefs people have and why they have them. I imagine this is due in part because I was taught to study and examine religious beliefs as a method of reinforcing the framework given to me. Of course, that backfired.
I love your honesty and acknowledgment that religion fits an important part of your life. I’ve often heard claims that we need religion to support ethical behavior and you share sense that is true for you.
Sam Harris shares the suffering test from Buddhism as one way to create an ethical framework. Imagine the world in which everyone is at peace, and there is no suffering. Now imagine any world in which even one person suffers. The previous world is preferable to the former. We should do what we can to navigate towards that world and reduce suffering.
In many western traditions, the golden rule is proposed as a framework for ethical behavior without a religious requirement. “Treat others as you would have them treat you.“ It’s simple and easy to follow, it doesn’t acknowledge the uniqueness of our experiences. Maybe an updated version that incorporates theory of mind and is inherently empathetic would be something like “treat others as they would like to be treated.“
One thing religions of all sorts have going for them is that they are the easy button tocreate community, connection, and ritual we all need in our lives as humans. The “unaffiliated” class in the Pew research survey you linked to has done a very poor job of describing what we should replace religion with. At the end of the day, getting together once a week to read from the same book and sing the same songs together as a powerful way to create that community.
I choked at Sam Harris’s assertion that a world without the three Abrahamic religions would somehow be more peaceful. I’m pretty sure that communism has generated much more bloodshed and misery, so maybe that’s what we need less of.
It’s similar to asserting that an absolute magical removal of firearms would reduce violence. Until people started making firearms again.
The problem is a lack of mores - the Judeo-Christian belief system and the Greco Roman foundation before it, provided sufficient stability for commerce and wealth.
Well stated. Communism killed about 100 million people. There is one Abrahamic religion in many countries that tells its followers to kill anyone not of their religion, to execute gays and women who reveal an ankle.
Communism was a religion with sacred texts and prophets. And it was abused horrifically by people who just wanted to be more equal than others, to paraphrase Orwell. Thanks for the comment Joel.
The interesting thing about Judaism is that it is not just a religion, it is more like an ethnic race/living history partnered with a philosophy of living.
I think there’s a good reason why someone raised Jewish believes that morality comes from religion, and why someone raised Christian believes morality shouldn’t come from religion. In Judaism, beliefs are up for debate, and also not central to being Jewish. As you say yourself, you can throw whole parts of it out and still be Jewish by heritage/morality/etc. Rabbis frequently debate amongst each other, as do Jewish people.
That is not as true with Christianity. When I decided that I did not believe Jesus rose from the dead, I was no longer Christian. There is no “cultural Christianity” or “ethnic Christianity” or even “moral Christianity.” It is not an identity or ethnicity or cultural heritage, it is just a religion. If I don’t believe that religion I am not part of it. In fact, I am even a sinner and in the moral wrong.
For this reason, I think Sam Harris is right. I think religion does more harm than good, and I don’t think religion is a great place to get our morality from. But I don’t think I would feel that way if I grew up Jewish.
That being said you should totally attend your grandchild’s baptism haha 😅
Do you celebrate Christmas? Or does that not count because it was created from a pagan holiday (ditto for Easter). Just wondering from a “technical” Catholic/sorta Anglican (based on middle school and high school influence from my all girls’ school experience) whose husband is a “cultural” Jew.
Hmm, I suppose I do have a tree and the lights and the candles, but I’m not sure that makes me a Christian? There is certainly religious influence on our cultures, but I’m not sure that’s the same thing as being able to claim a religious culture without the religion? But I’m certainly open to interpretation on that one!
The other two Abrahamic religions seek to spread the message, by living their values and also awareness / education. Yet, Judaism is more about preserving and passing on, which is how the ‘race’ part of it is intertwined. Please correct me if I’m wrong in this understanding.
I enjoyed your exploration of identity as well as this comments discussion that shows how layered it is / can be for many.
Would you say that there’s technically more than one “peoplehood” since different there are cultures (ie Ashkenazi, Sephardi, etc) with their own customs? And then there are the converts which are probably better off not grouped together since they themselves come from a variety of different cultures and ethnicities
I've heard a number of people call themselves "cultural Christians" as a way to describe how embedded the religion is in their country and culture, and how it probably shaped their values and behavior growing up (especially if they're old enough that their parents' generation was largely religious and raised them that way). I do think that's a valid descriptor for oneself, but I agree with you that it makes much more sense if you are Jewish, because of what you mentioned about belief. The encouragement of debate and seeking answers is something I've always admired about Judaism.
For the Christian side, I feel like Catholicism is more comparable. I'm not really sure why as I'm not Catholic myself, but I think my perception of this just has to do with how many Catholics I've personally known for whom being Catholic (even a "fallen" one) is such a huge part of their identity, independently and often also familially, in a way that feels different from other protestant denominations.
As a Catholic who rejects many of the rules and standards the Vatican has set up (mostly randomly, IMO), but who grew up in that church, being an altar girl, attending many youth services, going to a (liberal) Catholic school etc., this feels very true to me. I debate again and again whether I should formally leave this church, but I can’t bring myself to so far. My kids weren‘t baptized Catholic, but it still feels like an integral part of my identity that’s independent of my precise faith that I can‘t shed. Like a cultural root.
I wonder if this sort of quality of Catholicism has anything to do with its popularity among people who convert? You don't see people do it as often with Judaism, probably because the conversion process is much longer and more complicated, but seeing younger people convert to Catholicism is such an interestingly common thing during social transitions or times of uncertainty.
Hm, that‘s interesting! Where I live (Germany), I don‘t see this happening at all. Catholicism is the traditional denomination in some areas here (roughly half of Germany), and for good reason, many are leaving it, and especially young people are turning their back to this church. So it‘s more comparable to traditionally Catholic countries like Italy, Spain, and France, I would say.
There have been so many cases of child abuse and financial greed, and so little repentance, that I can understand it. Also the stance on abortion and gay relationships leave so much to be desired. Unless they change, this development will continue in Europe - but they aren‘t really focused on Europe anymore anyway.
As someone raised in a fundamentalist home where my parents (who were not Jewish) observed a Passover Seder because they believed Jewish culture was part of their own heritage as Christians, I'm not sure the distinctions are quite so binary. Maybe for some Jewish people they are. But I also observed Passover with many Messianic Jews over the years, so there was plenty of nuance to go around.
Your point about not remaining culturally tied to Christianity after leaving the faith depends, I suspect, on leaving a more evangelical form of Christianity. Those with ties to denominations with formal rituals likely have some aesthetic appreciation for Mass or its Episcopalian imitations. I once attended a Unitarian service, and the transparent mimicry of ritual without any kind of creed gave people that cultural/aesthetic feeling, I'm guessing.
It might be strange to add that I now consider myself a non-theistic Quaker. But I would say that this is largely because Quaker meetings are radical anti-ceremonies. There is little about any of the churchy qualities that appeals to me. But that collective attentiveness in silence, and the notion of the divine within everyone, is thoroughly compatible with humanism.
I also love the idea of the Quaker rituals (without the beliefs), though I haven’t been.
I came from Catholicism, and I still love Catholic rituals (without the beliefs), but I don’t think any Catholic would call me a Catholic because I still set up a nativity set in my home at Christmas.
Judaism is probably the religion closest to having rituals and philosophy without requiring too much belief (or at least allowing contradictory belief), which is why I could see more easily belonging to it culturally as a heritage for generations, observing Passover, etc, while still being considered Jewish.
I never knew that fundamentalist Christians celebrated Passover. Did they celebrate any other Jewish holidays? And, while I'm throwing questions at you, which holidays are celebrated by Quakers?
Most of the usual Christian holidays. But the song book has “Imagine” and other folk songs. It’s fairly secular. Christmas is a candlelight service where everyone lights a candle on behalf of someone else.
My Anglican alma mater’s “Chapel Booklet” (a service booklet containing Psalms, prayers and some hymns) in the 90s had “Morning has Broken” as well as some standards like “Amazing Grace.”
Great comment, Elle. I came here to say that I don’t see religion as a basis for morality (and think it’s in fact highly problematic when seen as such). Mine comes mostly from embracing the simple ideas (1) that I am human, so nothing human is foreign to me and (2) that a mycelial connection links and binds us all.
And, like Elle pointed out, when I turned away from the Christianity I was raised from, I was simply no longer Christian. Yet I still feel a connection to my mother’s father’s Judaism (though not Jewish). It feels like roots in a way the Christian bit doesn’t. Perhaps that’s partly because of the richness of debate in Judaism. I think it’s probably also just how much more it encompasses.
Thanks, Elle, for this explanation on Judaism. As someone without much exposure, I often wonder—is it a religion, a race, a culture, or all of them?
Living in Germany now, I see how Christian celebrations like Christmas and Easter are more cultural than religious. Yes, there’s mention of Jesus being born or resurrected, but no one is preaching it. None of the people I know here go to church regularly, yet they pay church taxes, get married in churches, and baptize their children. It fascinates me how the lines between religion and culture are blurred. In Malaysia, where I am from, Christianity is first and foremost a religion.
When I told my in-laws about the significance of Lunar New Year for us Chinese, they asked, “Which religion is this?” I was momentarily confused because many of our celebrations, while tied to myths and legends, aren’t religious. Then it dawned on me: most German celebrations, even those from ancient times, have been absorbed into Christianity or lost.
I plan to pass on significant Chinese cultural celebrations to my children, and we’ll continue to celebrate Christmas and Easter as cultural traditions, even though we’re not Christian. I resonate with what David said: ‘Because I’m part of forming something far bigger than myself. And there’s a holiness to that act of creation.’ This also aligns closely with Confucianism, which has greatly shaped Chinese culture, though I do have qualms with it (see: patriarchy).
That’s why I choose what to pass on, breaking some generational traumas and incorporating my own values. After all, both culture and humanity are always evolving, even within ancient and deeply rooted traditions like those of the Jewish and Chinese.
We celebrate three new years in our house - Lunar, Rosh Hashanah and the one on the Gregorian calendar. We also have our own customs that see kind of related but with our own twist. Since I was born and raised in Canada, I’m pretty much raising my son in three cultures (eg I made pumpkin and applesauce mooncakes (more like moon scones) today)! I’m a bit uncomfortable with the most traditional Confucian values since it doesn’t leave room for individualism.
Celebrating multiple traditions has the upside of more holidays and more delicious food. We moved to Canada for a year and in the fall we celebrated the Jewish holidays and both the Canadian and American Thanksgivings. But I don't think I was able to make Columbus Day land.
A wonderful dip into "religious" identity and practices. That you chose the term "wrestling" with your Jewish identity is not surprising as I believe most of us who were raised in one faith tradition or another often come to terms with what it means to us now, at a more mature stage of who we have become. Many seen to have left what they regarded as too authoritarian and confining. As an historical Christian, which is how I refer to myself, I can appreciate some of the values and beliefs that I gained early on that served me and others well. I was so curious about the Judaeo-Christian foundations that I went to a theological seminary for 3 years (Princeton) and studied the literature, the traditions and the practices, mostly in the Biblical texts in both Hebrew and Greek. I also studied the then current theologians such as Rheinhold Niebuhr, Karl Barth, Paul Tillich and Martin Buber. That 7 years later I would leave "organized religion" and move on to a different kind of faith isn't all that different from many others. I have used the following as a commentary on the current, ongoing concerns about the "evangelical Christians" that sums it up for me. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike their Christ." Enough for now. I will try and dive into this in a little more depth later, probably in a post down the road. Thanks, David, for kicking my brain into gear this morning, just what I needed on this Saturday, Shabbat!
PS A 13 yr old asking about his children is a precocious kid!
Thanks Gary. You very modestly slipped in that you can read Biblical Hebrew and ancient Greek! I hope you do write about his as you clearly have a lit of knowledge and perspective to provide.
Thanks, David. I struggled with the languages and it helps to read the “original” texts. There are numerous translations and interpretations from scholars who spend their lives immersed in those studies. I was clearly not destined for that. Looking at them in the context of when they were written and who the audience was helps to some degree. The Jewish wisdom literature has much to offer and you have some famous teachers such as Hillel, whose name is connected to the Mishnah and the Talmud. There’s much we could learn from our various faith traditions, especially in the treatment of others. There are some painful lessons from history with various wars spawned by religious differences. A sad commentary on man’s inhumanity toward other human beings
I have to say I'm with Harris on this one. It's not a belief in the absence of belief he's talking about, it's humanism. Greg Epstein articulates it reasonably well in "Good Without God." If there's no Prime Mover to fall back on, then we're left with human systems, such as laws and neighborliness. Bernie Sanders doesn't need religion to argue for the working class.
So, true to my contrary nature, I'd replace "ethic" with faith in your question for the comments. I don't have what I'd think of as any kind of faith, but I do have a humanistic ethic. Rather than trying to make some theological sense out of a vengeful god, I agree with Christopher Hitchens that such an omnipotent and jealous being was created in the image of a Babylonian Emperor, or whatever all-powerful being was available, and not the other way around. The notion of "worship" has monarchical roots that I find incompatible with democratic values.
While there is endless potential for division among humans, and thus no reason to believe Harris's rather utopian view that humanism would liberate us from disagreement, there's no escaping the fact that the deepest political divisions rise from religious differences.
This is very well said. I too am a humanist without religion. Our morality doesn’t have to come from religion, and in fact without it we create just what you said. Neighborliness.
‘Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism or other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good.’
– American Humanist Association
I like to think my attitude to my fellow man is moored in some sort of fundamental human decency rather than requiring any religious belief. I accept however that not everyone may think this way.
I'd guess that most people have had some sort of religious influence as they developed their ethics, their neighborliness, and their decency. So are the ethics of humanism inextricably bound up with some core moral code of one religion or another?
I'd guess that most people have had some sort of religious influence as they developed their ethics, their neighborliness, and their decency. So are the ethics of humanism inextricably bound up with some core moral code of one religion or another?
Did we develop our ethics because religion is embedded in our culture? Or did religion develop out of our natural ethics to care for one another?
In the Eastern world, ethics came from philosophers rather than religion. Confucianism, Mohism, etc were humanist philosophies without any kind of deity!
I'd guess that most people have had some sort of religious influence as they developed their ethics, their neighborliness, and their decency. So are the ethics of humanism inextricably bound up with some core moral code of one religion or another?
So which of the triple replies is the real one? Ha. Hope the one I picked works.
I was raised Pentecostal, and I'd have to say that the lack of ethics, neighborliness, and decency in that community contributed greatly to my loss of faith. From an early age I was threatened with hell for disobedience and witnessed powerful people abuse their platform while hiding behind holiness. So, no, my ethics have no foundation in religion. I have known ethical and neighborly people who were religious, but it's been the hellraisers who I've always been able to count on.
Perhaps there might be an argument for ethics originating in the earliest forms of religion, but that view would require accepting that religion emerged because it granted an evolutionary advantage. There's no following that line of reasoning without acknowledging that religion is an invention.
Humanism, as I understand it, finds its root in rationalism, which dates back at least to the Greeks. I am not the person to ask about the earliest sources of rationalism, but I think the answer to your question is by no means an obvious one. We'd have to define some terms. I'd want to distinguish ethics from morality, for instance, and philosophy from theology.
At least since Darwin, I think it's safe to say that the ethics of humanism are logical conclusions drawn from the origin story of evolution.
Hello David Roberts. Interesting post. What strikes me is that you seem to be giving very personal information about the whereabouts of your grandchildren. Reading your personal stories and perspectives have been a surprise. I love the image of you and your son discussing family faith.
He is an adult now, however.
As for the rest of the discussion, it's really great to make spaces like this where we can share personal points of view and be listened to, hopefully, and gain understanding about the myriad nuances in other people's own human journey, also hopefully with open minds and hearts. Really just listening is a skill that is worth working on.
In listing the Abrahamic religions, you left out Persian Zoroastrianism which precedes and set the groundwork for all the monotheistic religions to follow. They are so rigid and “pure” that they have almost died out. Their core philosophy was embraced by the Nazis including the concept of the Aryan (Persian) “ubermensch” - we know where that lead…
The Gospel of Matthew tells the story of the "star of Bethlehem" and the "Three Wise Men" or Magi. "Many historians and biblical scholars believe, “While originally polytheists, under Persian influence the magi became Zoroastrians, one of the first monotheistic religions.” According to BBC, “Zoroastrians believe there is one God called Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) and He created the world.” The Magi also studied the stars and were familiar with many different ancient prophecies." https://aleteia.org/2018/01/07/did-the-magi-believe-in-god
What were Zoroastrians doing at the humble birth of Jesus? The story gives credence to the claim that Jesus was special among men and marked for divine purpose. The Magi were considered the premiere scientists and prophets of the time and their "gifts" (blessings) gave status to this new Judeo-Pagan religion of Christianity. Meanwhile the nascent Arab Muslims were forcedly converting Zoroastrians to Islam leading to the current split of Sunni Arabs and Shia Iranians.
Polytheistic Hindu preceded the monotheistic Middle Eastern religions and Buddhism was an offshoot - a heresy that rejected the pantheon of deities for a sparce philosophy of logical, humanistic a-theism. Both Sam Harris and I tend toward the compassionate Buddhist atheism with an embodied sense of the Divine, the Tao.
The story of Abraham surely evolved out of Zoroastrian obsessive compulsiveness. Hearing God tell him to sacrifice his own son as a test of faith and be willing to do it! It is this fanaticism that these religions are founded? Again, what could possibly go wrong?
Quick research shows that Abraham was born in the Ur region which is now modern Iraq/Iran. It was the Persian emperor Darius that conquered the Babylonians freeing the nascent Jews from slavery and rebuilding the first temple in Jerusalem. The birth of Judaism is closely linked to the Persians with many Jews living there until the recent Iranian Islamist revolution.
I'm sorry for your loss Spence.
well done 🤗🤗
I admire anyone who has a strong faith. I’m a cradle Catholic. I attend Mass sporadically. My kids are baptized. My mother attends Mass daily. It’s gotten her through the loss of her eldest son in a plane crash and watching her husband of 60 years succumb to Alzheimer’s during Covid. We all need faith.. I believe that true genuine faith is not divisive… however politics is. Thanks again for a great post.
I admire those with strong faith as well. Perhaps mine will develop in time.
“Because I’m part of forming something far bigger than myself. And there’s a holiness to that act of creation.⁷
Many rabbis would say that this sentiment is an enactment of your belief in the Jewish God. (And that you don’t need to believe the Torah is divinely written… it’s squishier.) I’ve got plenty of books to recommend if you’re interested!
Always interested in book recommendations!
The classic text on God as being found in interpersonal relations is Martin Buber’s I and Thou. I think your essay channels this book the most.
A contemporary memoir on finding meaning in Judaism from a formerly secular center left democrat is Here All Along by Sarah Hurwitz. It’s a broad, 101-style book.
Start there, and happy to book club about them
Hmm, you make me reflect on my childhood, David, and remembering how I was moved and influenced by reading about great figures in history: great orators like Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, and--boy-- did Dr. King give me my first emotional chills on the back of my neck in fifth grade, when I read quotations from him (and this was when I was by myself in our grade school library).
I'd have to say I was moved by ethics first, whether in Ecclesiastes or other writing. I had learned about God from our Presbyterian Church and I always talked to God, even as a kid--maybe after I had climbed a tree and was alone on a weekend morning. Then, later in life, I choose to leave my Presbyterianism because I started studying it more formally and its Calvinist roots didn't quite sit right with my experiential idea of a Loving God (predestination).
I was very lucky to soon, thereafter, stumble upon Quakers, which suits me (my understanding of God) completely! But I'd say ethics was my first influence, and then I found religion. Maybe that is backwards, lol. Thank you for the reflective question.
And cute story about you and your son, and what a thinker he was, at such a young age!
So glad to know Quakers are still around. They were the original abolitionists.
Yes CK! And they were for women equally being able to preach as did the men because of their conviction of equality...and that was way back in 1650!! Incredible! Maybe inequality is a MODERN invention in human history....
❤️❤️❤️❤️❤️
You describe "equality" as if women will provide exactly the same leadership that a man will. Not sure if that's right, and if so, not sure how to explain the difference, but I question it.
Hello Gavin! I believe I wrote "women equally being able to preach," which I intended to mean equal opportunity. I did not intend to assert anything about leadership style being one way or the other.... Pardon if that came across as so.
Thank you for clarifying that. I agree women are able, sometimes even better. But like everything, they need to decide whether to do it.
Thanks for the comment Mmerikani. I don't think you got it backwards at all. And Dr.King was after all a pastor; hard to imagine his soaring rhetoric without his being brought up in the church.
Calvinism is so smug! I'm rich, which proves I'm one of the Elect. Very convenient belief for the wealthy Calvinist!
David, thanks for this look inside your identity and faith journey. I think that wrestling with matters of faith and identity is a good thing. I was raised in a devout Catholic home but haven't been a practicing Catholic for at least 25 years. Yet when I recently had surgery and was asked about my religious preference, I defaulted to the comfort of knowing a priest would be at my side if things went sideways. In many ways this identity has nothing to do with ideologies as I tend to be more like you thinking that we have very little capability of understanding or knowing any sort of higher power. I think that my identity with that faith of my childhood has more to do with the cultural rhythms and rituals than anything else. I am not too sure what I think about God but like Jacob, I will keep wrestling with him to see what comes of it.
Yes, the rhythms and rituals, that sounds so true to me, too. There‘s a comfort in the songs, the rituals, the mass - like a familiar home. Even though I don‘t attend Catholic mass anymore. But for instance, having a Catholic monk at my mom‘s funeral felt very comforting to me. And he did a wonderful job, from visiting us at home until the actual funeral service - he was such a blessing.
I've had the same experience. Having a member of the clergy at life events accentuates joy and helps with sorrow. Thanks Katrin for the comment.
Yes, it brings a calm and a depth to it - and he was so personal, he didn’t follow strict rituals, he just wanted to give us a space to commemorate and honour my mom, which is not a given with the Catholic Church.
Jacob wins that match! Or at least it's a draw.
“People are not necessarily wired to practice ethical behavior unmoored from religious belief or religious traditions and teachings. I know I’m not.”
I find this really interesting and generally agree with you, David. I’m not a religious person, though I wouldn’t label myself an atheist either. I was raised Catholic and while I have a variety of problems with the church, I do think religion can be a useful way to help people—especially children—develop a moral code and understand why it’s important to act ethically. I certainly don’t think it’s impossible to do that without religion, and sometimes religious dogma can be counterproductive in that regard. I guess I’m saying that having some sort of faith-based tradition can be a good heuristic for solidifying one’s moral code, as long as you don’t accept anything about it too blindly.
Exactly. I sent my kids to a Jewish day school where they learned morals and values. Of course we taught them this at home but many of today’s public schools offer a skewed view of history and CA just passed an ethnic studies curriculum that teaches falsehoods about Jews.
Samantha,
I agree with you. I think religions have a lot of foundational wisdom to provide about ethical behavior. Dogma and infallibility can be counterproductive. In your travels you experience many different religions so perhaps you'll pst about that at some point. I guess your Cairo post was about that city's "religion" of Murphy's law.
I agree. I enjoyed your piece. Encountered a good illustration of good foundational wisdom vs dogma: Judaism has excellent ethical principles on interpersonal conduct, including challenging misguided beliefs (such as supporting antisemitic politicians because of expediency) and prohibiting lashon hara, or speaking ill of someone just to damage or harass them. It does not, in contrast, say we should not push back against such misguided beliefs because the person who holds them also happens to be Jewish - even when that person is extremely thin-skinned about it. (Regrettably, you’d have to read the underlying post to know that this person is describing an accurate critique of misguided politics).
Good article.
After almost 30 years of leaving the religion of my childhood, I still find myself fascinated with the different beliefs people have and why they have them. I imagine this is due in part because I was taught to study and examine religious beliefs as a method of reinforcing the framework given to me. Of course, that backfired.
I love your honesty and acknowledgment that religion fits an important part of your life. I’ve often heard claims that we need religion to support ethical behavior and you share sense that is true for you.
Sam Harris shares the suffering test from Buddhism as one way to create an ethical framework. Imagine the world in which everyone is at peace, and there is no suffering. Now imagine any world in which even one person suffers. The previous world is preferable to the former. We should do what we can to navigate towards that world and reduce suffering.
In many western traditions, the golden rule is proposed as a framework for ethical behavior without a religious requirement. “Treat others as you would have them treat you.“ It’s simple and easy to follow, it doesn’t acknowledge the uniqueness of our experiences. Maybe an updated version that incorporates theory of mind and is inherently empathetic would be something like “treat others as they would like to be treated.“
One thing religions of all sorts have going for them is that they are the easy button tocreate community, connection, and ritual we all need in our lives as humans. The “unaffiliated” class in the Pew research survey you linked to has done a very poor job of describing what we should replace religion with. At the end of the day, getting together once a week to read from the same book and sing the same songs together as a powerful way to create that community.
Love this. Religion does create a beautiful community.
Thanks Aaron for such a thoughtful comment. Community is a big part of it. And can help solve the loneliness epidemic we're hearing about.
I choked at Sam Harris’s assertion that a world without the three Abrahamic religions would somehow be more peaceful. I’m pretty sure that communism has generated much more bloodshed and misery, so maybe that’s what we need less of.
It’s similar to asserting that an absolute magical removal of firearms would reduce violence. Until people started making firearms again.
The problem is a lack of mores - the Judeo-Christian belief system and the Greco Roman foundation before it, provided sufficient stability for commerce and wealth.
More of that, please.
Oh, to worship “commerce and wealth.” What could possibly go wrong?! 🙄
Well stated. Communism killed about 100 million people. There is one Abrahamic religion in many countries that tells its followers to kill anyone not of their religion, to execute gays and women who reveal an ankle.
Communism was a religion with sacred texts and prophets. And it was abused horrifically by people who just wanted to be more equal than others, to paraphrase Orwell. Thanks for the comment Joel.
The interesting thing about Judaism is that it is not just a religion, it is more like an ethnic race/living history partnered with a philosophy of living.
I think there’s a good reason why someone raised Jewish believes that morality comes from religion, and why someone raised Christian believes morality shouldn’t come from religion. In Judaism, beliefs are up for debate, and also not central to being Jewish. As you say yourself, you can throw whole parts of it out and still be Jewish by heritage/morality/etc. Rabbis frequently debate amongst each other, as do Jewish people.
That is not as true with Christianity. When I decided that I did not believe Jesus rose from the dead, I was no longer Christian. There is no “cultural Christianity” or “ethnic Christianity” or even “moral Christianity.” It is not an identity or ethnicity or cultural heritage, it is just a religion. If I don’t believe that religion I am not part of it. In fact, I am even a sinner and in the moral wrong.
For this reason, I think Sam Harris is right. I think religion does more harm than good, and I don’t think religion is a great place to get our morality from. But I don’t think I would feel that way if I grew up Jewish.
That being said you should totally attend your grandchild’s baptism haha 😅
Do you celebrate Christmas? Or does that not count because it was created from a pagan holiday (ditto for Easter). Just wondering from a “technical” Catholic/sorta Anglican (based on middle school and high school influence from my all girls’ school experience) whose husband is a “cultural” Jew.
Hmm, I suppose I do have a tree and the lights and the candles, but I’m not sure that makes me a Christian? There is certainly religious influence on our cultures, but I’m not sure that’s the same thing as being able to claim a religious culture without the religion? But I’m certainly open to interpretation on that one!
Judaism may be unusual if not unique as a combined peoplehood and religion. It's also not set up to gain adherents.
The other two Abrahamic religions seek to spread the message, by living their values and also awareness / education. Yet, Judaism is more about preserving and passing on, which is how the ‘race’ part of it is intertwined. Please correct me if I’m wrong in this understanding.
I enjoyed your exploration of identity as well as this comments discussion that shows how layered it is / can be for many.
Right, that is very very unique.
Would you say that there’s technically more than one “peoplehood” since different there are cultures (ie Ashkenazi, Sephardi, etc) with their own customs? And then there are the converts which are probably better off not grouped together since they themselves come from a variety of different cultures and ethnicities
I see it as closer to being one rather than two separate. Perhaps 1A and 1B, with the A and the B differing depending on who chooses the labels.
I've heard a number of people call themselves "cultural Christians" as a way to describe how embedded the religion is in their country and culture, and how it probably shaped their values and behavior growing up (especially if they're old enough that their parents' generation was largely religious and raised them that way). I do think that's a valid descriptor for oneself, but I agree with you that it makes much more sense if you are Jewish, because of what you mentioned about belief. The encouragement of debate and seeking answers is something I've always admired about Judaism.
For the Christian side, I feel like Catholicism is more comparable. I'm not really sure why as I'm not Catholic myself, but I think my perception of this just has to do with how many Catholics I've personally known for whom being Catholic (even a "fallen" one) is such a huge part of their identity, independently and often also familially, in a way that feels different from other protestant denominations.
As a Catholic who rejects many of the rules and standards the Vatican has set up (mostly randomly, IMO), but who grew up in that church, being an altar girl, attending many youth services, going to a (liberal) Catholic school etc., this feels very true to me. I debate again and again whether I should formally leave this church, but I can’t bring myself to so far. My kids weren‘t baptized Catholic, but it still feels like an integral part of my identity that’s independent of my precise faith that I can‘t shed. Like a cultural root.
I wonder if this sort of quality of Catholicism has anything to do with its popularity among people who convert? You don't see people do it as often with Judaism, probably because the conversion process is much longer and more complicated, but seeing younger people convert to Catholicism is such an interestingly common thing during social transitions or times of uncertainty.
Hm, that‘s interesting! Where I live (Germany), I don‘t see this happening at all. Catholicism is the traditional denomination in some areas here (roughly half of Germany), and for good reason, many are leaving it, and especially young people are turning their back to this church. So it‘s more comparable to traditionally Catholic countries like Italy, Spain, and France, I would say.
I’m always a little sad when I hear about people leaving a Judeo-Christian religion.
There have been so many cases of child abuse and financial greed, and so little repentance, that I can understand it. Also the stance on abortion and gay relationships leave so much to be desired. Unless they change, this development will continue in Europe - but they aren‘t really focused on Europe anymore anyway.
I have the same impression about Catholic identity but Im not sure why.
Wonderful comment. Isn’t the Unity Church a cultural Christian church?
Elle,
You started a really great comment discussion! Thank you.
As someone raised in a fundamentalist home where my parents (who were not Jewish) observed a Passover Seder because they believed Jewish culture was part of their own heritage as Christians, I'm not sure the distinctions are quite so binary. Maybe for some Jewish people they are. But I also observed Passover with many Messianic Jews over the years, so there was plenty of nuance to go around.
Your point about not remaining culturally tied to Christianity after leaving the faith depends, I suspect, on leaving a more evangelical form of Christianity. Those with ties to denominations with formal rituals likely have some aesthetic appreciation for Mass or its Episcopalian imitations. I once attended a Unitarian service, and the transparent mimicry of ritual without any kind of creed gave people that cultural/aesthetic feeling, I'm guessing.
It might be strange to add that I now consider myself a non-theistic Quaker. But I would say that this is largely because Quaker meetings are radical anti-ceremonies. There is little about any of the churchy qualities that appeals to me. But that collective attentiveness in silence, and the notion of the divine within everyone, is thoroughly compatible with humanism.
I also love the idea of the Quaker rituals (without the beliefs), though I haven’t been.
I came from Catholicism, and I still love Catholic rituals (without the beliefs), but I don’t think any Catholic would call me a Catholic because I still set up a nativity set in my home at Christmas.
Judaism is probably the religion closest to having rituals and philosophy without requiring too much belief (or at least allowing contradictory belief), which is why I could see more easily belonging to it culturally as a heritage for generations, observing Passover, etc, while still being considered Jewish.
I never knew that fundamentalist Christians celebrated Passover. Did they celebrate any other Jewish holidays? And, while I'm throwing questions at you, which holidays are celebrated by Quakers?
Most of the usual Christian holidays. But the song book has “Imagine” and other folk songs. It’s fairly secular. Christmas is a candlelight service where everyone lights a candle on behalf of someone else.
My Anglican alma mater’s “Chapel Booklet” (a service booklet containing Psalms, prayers and some hymns) in the 90s had “Morning has Broken” as well as some standards like “Amazing Grace.”
Great comment, Elle. I came here to say that I don’t see religion as a basis for morality (and think it’s in fact highly problematic when seen as such). Mine comes mostly from embracing the simple ideas (1) that I am human, so nothing human is foreign to me and (2) that a mycelial connection links and binds us all.
And, like Elle pointed out, when I turned away from the Christianity I was raised from, I was simply no longer Christian. Yet I still feel a connection to my mother’s father’s Judaism (though not Jewish). It feels like roots in a way the Christian bit doesn’t. Perhaps that’s partly because of the richness of debate in Judaism. I think it’s probably also just how much more it encompasses.
And also, yes to the baptism attendance. 😜
Thanks, Elle, for this explanation on Judaism. As someone without much exposure, I often wonder—is it a religion, a race, a culture, or all of them?
Living in Germany now, I see how Christian celebrations like Christmas and Easter are more cultural than religious. Yes, there’s mention of Jesus being born or resurrected, but no one is preaching it. None of the people I know here go to church regularly, yet they pay church taxes, get married in churches, and baptize their children. It fascinates me how the lines between religion and culture are blurred. In Malaysia, where I am from, Christianity is first and foremost a religion.
When I told my in-laws about the significance of Lunar New Year for us Chinese, they asked, “Which religion is this?” I was momentarily confused because many of our celebrations, while tied to myths and legends, aren’t religious. Then it dawned on me: most German celebrations, even those from ancient times, have been absorbed into Christianity or lost.
I plan to pass on significant Chinese cultural celebrations to my children, and we’ll continue to celebrate Christmas and Easter as cultural traditions, even though we’re not Christian. I resonate with what David said: ‘Because I’m part of forming something far bigger than myself. And there’s a holiness to that act of creation.’ This also aligns closely with Confucianism, which has greatly shaped Chinese culture, though I do have qualms with it (see: patriarchy).
That’s why I choose what to pass on, breaking some generational traumas and incorporating my own values. After all, both culture and humanity are always evolving, even within ancient and deeply rooted traditions like those of the Jewish and Chinese.
We celebrate three new years in our house - Lunar, Rosh Hashanah and the one on the Gregorian calendar. We also have our own customs that see kind of related but with our own twist. Since I was born and raised in Canada, I’m pretty much raising my son in three cultures (eg I made pumpkin and applesauce mooncakes (more like moon scones) today)! I’m a bit uncomfortable with the most traditional Confucian values since it doesn’t leave room for individualism.
https://www.instagram.com/p/C_8noE4P0Z1/?igsh=MWZwc2J5ajc4Z2xibA==
(At least I tried, right?)
Celebrating multiple traditions has the upside of more holidays and more delicious food. We moved to Canada for a year and in the fall we celebrated the Jewish holidays and both the Canadian and American Thanksgivings. But I don't think I was able to make Columbus Day land.
A wonderful dip into "religious" identity and practices. That you chose the term "wrestling" with your Jewish identity is not surprising as I believe most of us who were raised in one faith tradition or another often come to terms with what it means to us now, at a more mature stage of who we have become. Many seen to have left what they regarded as too authoritarian and confining. As an historical Christian, which is how I refer to myself, I can appreciate some of the values and beliefs that I gained early on that served me and others well. I was so curious about the Judaeo-Christian foundations that I went to a theological seminary for 3 years (Princeton) and studied the literature, the traditions and the practices, mostly in the Biblical texts in both Hebrew and Greek. I also studied the then current theologians such as Rheinhold Niebuhr, Karl Barth, Paul Tillich and Martin Buber. That 7 years later I would leave "organized religion" and move on to a different kind of faith isn't all that different from many others. I have used the following as a commentary on the current, ongoing concerns about the "evangelical Christians" that sums it up for me. "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike their Christ." Enough for now. I will try and dive into this in a little more depth later, probably in a post down the road. Thanks, David, for kicking my brain into gear this morning, just what I needed on this Saturday, Shabbat!
PS A 13 yr old asking about his children is a precocious kid!
Thanks Gary. You very modestly slipped in that you can read Biblical Hebrew and ancient Greek! I hope you do write about his as you clearly have a lit of knowledge and perspective to provide.
Thanks, David. I struggled with the languages and it helps to read the “original” texts. There are numerous translations and interpretations from scholars who spend their lives immersed in those studies. I was clearly not destined for that. Looking at them in the context of when they were written and who the audience was helps to some degree. The Jewish wisdom literature has much to offer and you have some famous teachers such as Hillel, whose name is connected to the Mishnah and the Talmud. There’s much we could learn from our various faith traditions, especially in the treatment of others. There are some painful lessons from history with various wars spawned by religious differences. A sad commentary on man’s inhumanity toward other human beings
“I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so unlike their Christ.” That bears repeating.
I have to say I'm with Harris on this one. It's not a belief in the absence of belief he's talking about, it's humanism. Greg Epstein articulates it reasonably well in "Good Without God." If there's no Prime Mover to fall back on, then we're left with human systems, such as laws and neighborliness. Bernie Sanders doesn't need religion to argue for the working class.
So, true to my contrary nature, I'd replace "ethic" with faith in your question for the comments. I don't have what I'd think of as any kind of faith, but I do have a humanistic ethic. Rather than trying to make some theological sense out of a vengeful god, I agree with Christopher Hitchens that such an omnipotent and jealous being was created in the image of a Babylonian Emperor, or whatever all-powerful being was available, and not the other way around. The notion of "worship" has monarchical roots that I find incompatible with democratic values.
While there is endless potential for division among humans, and thus no reason to believe Harris's rather utopian view that humanism would liberate us from disagreement, there's no escaping the fact that the deepest political divisions rise from religious differences.
This is very well said. I too am a humanist without religion. Our morality doesn’t have to come from religion, and in fact without it we create just what you said. Neighborliness.
Me too!
‘Humanism is a progressive philosophy of life that, without theism or other supernatural beliefs, affirms our ability and responsibility to lead ethical lives of personal fulfillment that aspire to the greater good.’
– American Humanist Association
I like to think my attitude to my fellow man is moored in some sort of fundamental human decency rather than requiring any religious belief. I accept however that not everyone may think this way.
I'm replying to Josh, Elle, and Greg,
Forgive me if I triple reply!.
I'd guess that most people have had some sort of religious influence as they developed their ethics, their neighborliness, and their decency. So are the ethics of humanism inextricably bound up with some core moral code of one religion or another?
I'm replying to Josh, Elle, and Greg,
Forgive me if I triple reply!.
I'd guess that most people have had some sort of religious influence as they developed their ethics, their neighborliness, and their decency. So are the ethics of humanism inextricably bound up with some core moral code of one religion or another?
Did we develop our ethics because religion is embedded in our culture? Or did religion develop out of our natural ethics to care for one another?
In the Eastern world, ethics came from philosophers rather than religion. Confucianism, Mohism, etc were humanist philosophies without any kind of deity!
I'm replying to Josh, Elle, and Greg,
Forgive me if I triple reply!.
I'd guess that most people have had some sort of religious influence as they developed their ethics, their neighborliness, and their decency. So are the ethics of humanism inextricably bound up with some core moral code of one religion or another?
So which of the triple replies is the real one? Ha. Hope the one I picked works.
I was raised Pentecostal, and I'd have to say that the lack of ethics, neighborliness, and decency in that community contributed greatly to my loss of faith. From an early age I was threatened with hell for disobedience and witnessed powerful people abuse their platform while hiding behind holiness. So, no, my ethics have no foundation in religion. I have known ethical and neighborly people who were religious, but it's been the hellraisers who I've always been able to count on.
Perhaps there might be an argument for ethics originating in the earliest forms of religion, but that view would require accepting that religion emerged because it granted an evolutionary advantage. There's no following that line of reasoning without acknowledging that religion is an invention.
Humanism, as I understand it, finds its root in rationalism, which dates back at least to the Greeks. I am not the person to ask about the earliest sources of rationalism, but I think the answer to your question is by no means an obvious one. We'd have to define some terms. I'd want to distinguish ethics from morality, for instance, and philosophy from theology.
At least since Darwin, I think it's safe to say that the ethics of humanism are logical conclusions drawn from the origin story of evolution.
Political identity these days is much more divisive than religious identity. What is Sam Harris going to do about that?
Maybe he'll reply!
Hello David Roberts. Interesting post. What strikes me is that you seem to be giving very personal information about the whereabouts of your grandchildren. Reading your personal stories and perspectives have been a surprise. I love the image of you and your son discussing family faith.
He is an adult now, however.
As for the rest of the discussion, it's really great to make spaces like this where we can share personal points of view and be listened to, hopefully, and gain understanding about the myriad nuances in other people's own human journey, also hopefully with open minds and hearts. Really just listening is a skill that is worth working on.
Thanks Corrine.
You are most welcome, David. And I thank you for your beautiful stories, showing us some of the cards in your hand.
In listing the Abrahamic religions, you left out Persian Zoroastrianism which precedes and set the groundwork for all the monotheistic religions to follow. They are so rigid and “pure” that they have almost died out. Their core philosophy was embraced by the Nazis including the concept of the Aryan (Persian) “ubermensch” - we know where that lead…
https://johnhardman.substack.com/p/the-curse-of-zoroaster
Interesting. And I believe Buddhism predates the Abrahamic religions too.
The Gospel of Matthew tells the story of the "star of Bethlehem" and the "Three Wise Men" or Magi. "Many historians and biblical scholars believe, “While originally polytheists, under Persian influence the magi became Zoroastrians, one of the first monotheistic religions.” According to BBC, “Zoroastrians believe there is one God called Ahura Mazda (Wise Lord) and He created the world.” The Magi also studied the stars and were familiar with many different ancient prophecies." https://aleteia.org/2018/01/07/did-the-magi-believe-in-god
What were Zoroastrians doing at the humble birth of Jesus? The story gives credence to the claim that Jesus was special among men and marked for divine purpose. The Magi were considered the premiere scientists and prophets of the time and their "gifts" (blessings) gave status to this new Judeo-Pagan religion of Christianity. Meanwhile the nascent Arab Muslims were forcedly converting Zoroastrians to Islam leading to the current split of Sunni Arabs and Shia Iranians.
Polytheistic Hindu preceded the monotheistic Middle Eastern religions and Buddhism was an offshoot - a heresy that rejected the pantheon of deities for a sparce philosophy of logical, humanistic a-theism. Both Sam Harris and I tend toward the compassionate Buddhist atheism with an embodied sense of the Divine, the Tao.
There's a lot of wisdom in Buddhism. "All suffering comes from desire;" there's a lot of truth in that!
I believe there is a particular appeal to Jews of Buddhism.
interesting about Zoroster. Abrahamic means accepting Abraham as a holy and important figure, which those three faiths do.
The story of Abraham surely evolved out of Zoroastrian obsessive compulsiveness. Hearing God tell him to sacrifice his own son as a test of faith and be willing to do it! It is this fanaticism that these religions are founded? Again, what could possibly go wrong?
Quick research shows that Abraham was born in the Ur region which is now modern Iraq/Iran. It was the Persian emperor Darius that conquered the Babylonians freeing the nascent Jews from slavery and rebuilding the first temple in Jerusalem. The birth of Judaism is closely linked to the Persians with many Jews living there until the recent Iranian Islamist revolution.
Good reason to leave Zoroastrianism out