111 Comments

Let it go… is it more important to be right or to be kind? Obviously in the case of medical decisions or nuclear codes, it’s more important to be right, but it seems like a lot of people want to shame others into admitting they are wrong just so they can prove they are right. Does that make sense? In the end, people know if they are wrong and are often just to embarrassed to admit it. At least in the moment. Good essay. I’ll have to write about my dinners with 7 other siblings around a wood table in our kitchen. Very different setting but also very similar father figure.

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Agreed about the dinner table scene. 8 of us every night, but no maid, my father clearly at the head and lots of “lively” discussion….

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That's why I called it an obsession. I can't naturally let it go. I will often refrain from correcting but in my head....

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Familial obsessions like this are EXACTLY why Stuart Smalley (one of Al Franken's more hilarious character creations) went on a crusade to "to put the fun back into dys-functional".

A viewing of Stuart Saves Family https://www.amazon.com/Stuart-Saves-His-Family-Franken/dp/B000059TET might be exactly what the doctor would order at this juncture, David. But seriously, heartfelt humor is an amazing solvent and balm for resolving hard to comb out obsessive tangles. It was a big part of what worked for me in healing some very similar challenges from a very similar upbringing.

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At 72 I am still waiting for wisdom to strike. I make my errors try to correct as best I can and turn the page.

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That's healthier. Maybe I'll get there.

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Aug 31Liked by david roberts

Good words.🙏🙏🙏

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Wonderful post. I’m dealing with this a lot now with a certain individual. I have learned to approach things in ways that don’t trigger his defensive tendencies. I act somewhat subservient and pick my battles carefully. I learned long ago that people are not rational so I deal with their emotions instead of trying to talk them out of them. But I do love dealing with people who will admit they are wrong

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You re right that sometimes emotional intelligence should be the overriding factor.

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Good one, David, to see the longer and larger context of your early learning having brought you to where you are today. Many of us made course corrections that have served us better than if we had become entrenched and more stubborn in our refusal to consider the facts, the data, the research - all there for our benefit. My frustration is with those who either won't or can't open their minds to information that challenges their POV. It may be the teacher in me wanting to "correct" the mistakes of students or it may just be me still trying to help others become more enlightened. I have been wrong numerous times, made my share of mistakes and bad judgment and yet, here I am, not someone with all the answers, far from that, just an ordinary citizen who cares about what is good, beautiful and true. That goes for a lot of things, including the environment, the upcoming election and my own soul. Thanks for stirring the pot tnis Saturday morning.

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Thanks Gary. I always look forward to your uplifting comments.

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Thanks, David. I look forward to your thoughtful, good writing and story sharing. Do I see a memoir in the works?

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Do you think those of us who grew up privileged but in “othered” cultures (ie anyone who isn’t Anglo-Protestant) have an increased need to be perfect? It’s already an issue for many kids, especially in well-off families (from an academic perspective, anyway), but judging from my peers/relatives who are either immigrants from Hong Kong or have parents who are, there’s this pressure. Like, if you don’t go to this school and get this kind of degree and that kind of job, you’re nothing. And for Asians, anyway, you’re not allowed to challenge your elders without being accused of being disrespectful. I could, at 45, still be criticized for doing something pretty simple if the older generation thinks it’s crazy (eg sending my son to the school he goes to right now instead of an older, “more established” school).

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I think it depends on the culture and in America what generation of immigrants you're in. From anecdotal observation I think there are similarities between the Jewish and Asian immigrant cultures in America, particularly second generation. An emphasis by the first to be tough on the second. And an emphasis on education. Both cultures have an ancient history of valuing literacy as status.

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Great post, extremely relatable across characters; my daughter is a challenger, a litigator, and it’s both awesome and occasionally bewildering: she plainly prefers her way to an informed way, and boy oh boy can I not get too mad at that given my own (idiotic) nature!

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I have two contrarians sons and no one knows better how to push my buttons.

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founding
Sep 2Liked by david roberts

If only you had a third child to help mediate…

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You and I are too much alike in our ways of "pretend dry cleaner yelling" to push buttons intentionally.

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I love this post. I love how it winds through your entire life in vivid detail and tracks the development of a quality you now possess. So well done.

I used to fight people to the death about things I KNEW were right (and often were)…but now I’m more curious about why they believe something and instead, I hold my opinion (it often feels like pulling my own fingernails off sometimes) and turn my focus to trying to understand their mind. What would make someone think something so absurd? It’s no less arrogant than smugly trying to prove them wrong, but it has had the unintended side effect of helping me understand people I disagree with much more (or understanding what I deem stupidity, which I commonly used to wrongly assume was malicious). And it avoids conflict, which is something I prefer these days.

Also: I can’t hear the phrase mens rea without thinking of the movie See No Evil, Hear No Evil, so thank you for making me smile this morning, too.

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Cici, I had to look up the movie clip. It does sound like a disease and a "men's disease" at that.

Your way of handling people is more mature and takes more patience. Sometimes I can do that, but more often I'll just remain outwardly silent.

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I’m not sure if nature is the word…I’ve just internalized the arguing and turned it into an inner eye roll. And then tried to slap some compassion on it.

If you haven’t seen the movie and are looking for a (nowadays very irreverent) laugh…highly recommend.

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Haha. I couldn’t help thinking of Legally Blonde when I read mens rea.

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It’s so funny how pop culture has redefined so much, including random words like mens rea. I forgot about that scene from Legally Blonde - it was so funny. Now I need to rewatch!!

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Sounds like your brother has always been amazing. And I’m so glad that Debbie got a second opinion.

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Thanks Beth.

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I take note of the fact that they can't or won't understand their error and learn from it then file it away in my brain. Where I file it depends on the importance of the fact that they refuse to acknowledge. A doctor who acts like this is far more important to one's life than say some guy in a bar that insists the Dolphins undefeated season was in 1971 instead of '72.

I will say that I don't associate with people who refuse to face facts and change their minds. You won't be surprised that I don't go to many parties or have many friends, especially over the past ten years.

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I agree there is a hierarchy of facts. But I was a Dolphins fan for their undefeated season and I still remember the key players. Garo Yepremian (I had to look up the spelling.)

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LOL, Czonka, was another hard one!

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Very hard to watch when it is a son who is always right…. Painfully difficult to watch him grow and continue the attitude. I must wonder from whom he learned those behaviors??? His father says “I don’t know” so often (even when 99% sure on a hunch) that it’s predictable. My family, by contrast, speaks with an air of authority (“often in error, never in doubt,” my husband says, quoting one of his law professors from years ago). Thanks for another engaging essay.

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Thanks Etta. All families (if any) who agree on everything are boring; all other families are interesting in their own way.

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Yeah, I assumed every family had dinner table conversations—not unlike what your father and my father engaged. I was shocked when I sat at some other tables and experienced almost silence. Of course, I began to either desire or “judge” those families, depending on the overall “feel” of the table…I still regret that so many people raised now have so few shared table experiences.

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founding
Sep 2Liked by david roberts

Tolstoy.

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Like today’s ’fact checkers’ who merely go by Trump’s words and ignore his history and intent, I’m not buying “oh, he only meant the people peacefully protesting, not the Neo Nazis”. The man has had meals with white supremacists and told the Proud Boys to “stand back and stand by”. You really think he’s splitting hairs over who was protesting? Come on, now.

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My comment was narrowly focused on that one comment taken out of context. And yes he probably wished into existence the absent peaceful protests. But I stand by my conclusion that it was not his intent by that comment to label the White supremacists "fine people."

That conclusion does not apply to other comments and actions before and after, including the Proud Boys comment in the 2020 debate that you brought up and does not get enough wattage.

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Just a few other facts. Biden was friends with David Duke who always votes democrat. You won’t find this on Google because their algorithm is skewed. Trump’s daughter is an Orthodox Jew. Trump moved the US embassy to Jerusalem, lead the Abraham accords and declared Israel’s sovereignty over the Golan Heights. Kamala expressed sympathy with the pro Hamas rioters. She also expressed “serious concern” for the Palestinians but no mention of the 80,000 displaced Israelis and the tiny country battling enemies on every border. Obama and Biden gave billions to Iran who then funded Hamas, Hezbollah and the Houthis. Actions speak louder. If Kamala is elected I hope she will stop funding Iran and stop funding public universities that allow violence against Jewish students. Biden did nothing.

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Starting from the proposition that all medical problems are amenable of some solution, it is difficult and frustrating to visit multiple doctors and receive varied treatments, all to no avail. My middle daughter has a problem with her eyes right now that fits into that category. To make matters worse, she overheard one of the doctors, thinking my daughter had left the office, call her crazy. She gave her a piece of her mind. The good news is she has finally found a doctor who listens and appears to have identified a treatment that works.

As for Trump's "good people on both sides" comment, I have long known that was a red herring. But that is the substance of this election -- both sides quoting half-truths or flat out lies to criticize their opponent. Trump brings it on himself with thoughtless comments. But after Kamala Harris' CNN interview this week, I can't take her as a serious contender. It's a shame neither party could field a better candidate. Our primary system has failed us.

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I will be rooting very hard for Kamala but I thought the interview was a real downer.

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Aug 31Liked by david roberts

Yes, that CNN interview was a downer, despite the fact the interviewer was a Harris supporter who threw softballs. And as a Foreign Service retiree, I kept thinking about what Xi, Putin and the Supreme Leader must be thinking of sitting down with her one-on-one someday. It's not that she doesn't defend her position well, it's that she doesn't have a position.

I used to worry about the proposal by the BRICs to create an international reserve currency, but Brazil appears to be committing hara-kiri over Elon Musk's X, so maybe BRICs money is a dead letter. I still wish Dana Bash could have asked her position on things like that. A serious interview would plumb her proposed policies on Ukraine, Russia, Israel, China, India, and what she thinks about the BRICs proposed world reserve currency.

The economy tops voters' list of issues, but if Bash got any news on that front, I missed it. I have heard VP Harris say she wants to give $25,000 to poor first-time home buyers, but I wonder what sellers will do if they knew the government was fronting that cash. And as someone who has a little money invested, I wonder what her proposed tax on unrealized gains would do to me.

So yes, the interview was a waste of time except for learning her core values haven't changed. The last time I heard her talk about core values, they sounded Marxist. That's something I can do without, having worked in Dahomey and Venezuela. Meanwhile, voters haven't learned anything they didn't know before the CNN interview. And with to months left before the election, I don't think they'll learn much more about what she stands for.

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The questions were as disappointingly empty as were the answers. "How will you pay for that?" was an obvious follow up.

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The answer to that question is always "with other peoples' money." Until, as Margaret Thatcher said, other people run out of money. It's the universal failure of Marxism.

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Aug 31Liked by david roberts

It depends on who they are and what's my responsibility.

If they're my kids...it'll be obviously very different

I generally choose "no conflict" with the rest of the world-unless I see it also as my responsibility, or a person is curious enough to learn, in short, will depend on a context.

But yes, I find it incredibly irritating when people never admit they're wrong.

By the way some of them know that, find fault with it, feel sorry about ..it's just a pride matter with them. Admitting. I have a friend like that. I know that for her saying something vague to the tune "I was maybe wrong then" a year or two or three after the fact takes huge inner work and effort...so I remind myself of it and respect her for that...makes it easier to forgive too, because it can be painful, what she says. Very painful.

I myself am much more like you, so I wonder what's so hard, saying"I don't know", and I don't argue what I don't know for sure. I love discussing, yes-but just with a handful of people these days.

But people have..different scale of importance of things ? Say, to some it's strength vs weakness-and they erroneusly might put admitting they were wrong under "weakness".

To some, it's independence vs dependence.

To some, closeness vs distance.

I mean all of us hold all dear to a degree....I speak of what is THE thing for us, the most important scale.

Thank you for the engagingpost-I'd rather cut myself here or else it's too long a comment.

PS it was like reading a book...I mean, governess, formal dinner...well, that's one of the reasons I mostly like Substack. It's like a book. But as if in your childhood dreams-everybody comes off the pages and talks to you.

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Thanks Chen for the substantive comment. And please feel free to make your comments as short or as long as you please!

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Aug 31Liked by david roberts

Our family dinners were more mundane, but once a week, we went to my dad’s parents for dinner. Granny at one end, Grandpa at the other end of a five-foot wide cherry table with high-backed velvet covered chairs. Paul or Ofelia would serve and clear dishes. They were the husband and wife team that filled the roles of cook, housekeeper and gardener between them. Fortunately, there were no beets. My bane was creamed spinach, if it was on the menu. Most of the talked was grown-up stuff, but it’s also when I heard news of my aunt, uncle, and older cousins, who also had dinner with our grandparents once a week. Since it was only once a week, it was a highlight to remember, rather than a daily routine.

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Bill, sounds like those dinners were valuable in promoting inter generational connections. I don't remember creamed spinach. I did like carrots and still do. Still hate beets! I guess I hold food grudges.

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They were. Both of my grandparents were involved in civic organizations, as were my parents. Family dinners were where I got the idea that volunteering was part of being a grownup.

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I hate beets, too! And they seem to be in vogue right now. I guess they are good for you or something.

My mother never apologized or admitted that she was wrong. As with many things, this made me strive not to be like her, so I do both easily. I also find it easy to say, “I don’t know,” even if I think I do.

The work I spent my adult life doing often involved gray areas and nuances. I wasn’t so much trying to be right all the time as trying to get people to look at disability issues from a different perspective than the one they currently held.

I can’t remember when I stopped trying to argue with my mother—her unnuanced dedication to all Republican views and more bewildered me. She was a Holocaust denier. She would try to start an argument with me, but I wouldn’t play. Then she would wind herself up to yelling, as if we were arguing, even though I wasn’t saying anything.

Because of my experience with her, I have little taste for argument when it comes down to one is right and one is wrong.

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As I listened to the audio, which you always do very well, I kept thinking how exhausting it sounds to be inside your head. I cannot imagine putting any of my energy towards getting someone to admit they are wrong, although I don't believe this is a choice you are making. My son is 12, academically gifted and on the autism spectrum. One of his challenges is cognitive rigidity (a component of executive functioning), so when he gets stuck seeing things in only black and white, (right or wrong), I try to help him see the many shades of gray in between.

I've also written extensively about grief and talked with hundreds of grievers in the three years since my husband died. While everyone's experience is individual, I've heard two things over and over again: time is not linear and a clarity about the duality in life. We replace "but" with "and also" amid the growing awareness that opposing feelings often coexist. Nostalgia and bittersweet are two words that express this coupling of opposite emotions simultaneously. Many men find it difficult to express one emotion at a time, so I can imagine that feeling two at the same time would feel overwhelming.

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Thanks Amy. Yes, my brain is full of thoughts most of the time. Although I have no way of comparing that to other people's quantity of thoughts.

I appreciate and admire your writing on grief. And I suppose that grief does emphasize the duality you write about. The then and now.

Writing these posts for me are a mix of catharsis and emotional fatigue. It's wondrous when a memory pops into my head. But some memories certainly are bittersweet.

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